The Worst Thing That Could Happen...has

[Indee]

Join our free community today.

Connect with other like-minded dog lovers!

Login or Register

If Jordan made her jump then of course she will want to protect herself, she in no way went and deliberately bit him or showed dominance over him. Therefore it has to go down as a nasty experience and you need to learn from it. There is no need to punish Sienna she was just doing what comes naturally, a nip for a dog is just a telling off and as humans we have to remember that they do not communicate in the same way as us. I'm sure Jordan will learn from his mistake and as well as keeping the dogs off the furniture and making sure Jordan knows what he can and can't do with them I would possibly do some training with him, such as letting him feed the dogs (preparing their dinner, making them sit and wait for it, Jordan eating a biscuit so they can see, then putting the bowls down and then giving them the command that they can eat) so that it establishes the fact that he is higher up in the pack then they are (with children around it is easy for a dog to sometimes put themselves above them, after all you have to teach a pup when he crosses the line?!)

I would also keep her out the way if he has any friends over or you have any other children visiting.

 

[Seraphina]

How awful for you Lesley, I have been in situation like that couple of times when my daughter was little, it is always heartbreaking. How much has jordan been hurt? Did she break a skin? But I think that distinction has to be made between a dog growling, snapping and actually savaging child (or adult). If somebody would jump on me when I am fast asleep I would most likely snap at him or her if not bite their head off. You cannot expect dog not to react.

Growl is a warning, that is only way that dog can to tell you he is bothered; he should not be punished for that. I always told the children when dog growls they must leave him alone. My Danes were very good with kids;they were able to take all sort of rough games, the Borzois were not, nothing to do with being vicious, just not built to withstand that sort of treatment.

If dog gets grumpy the first thing i would do is to lok for reason, he may not feel well, maybe hurting. In any case children have to know that dog is a living creature, not a toy, and has to be treated with respect.

Only a dog which shows agression for no reason should be be PTS.

Lead pipes are not a consideration, Braindead!!!!!!!!! :rant:

I am sure Sienna will be fine, Lesley. :luck: :luck: :luck: :luck:

Lida

 

[Deb]

Leslie, my heart goes out to you.

Having read this thread thoroghly, it really does seem like it was a reflex reation by your dog which was disturbed whilst sleeping. Having said that I reallly do hope your son is ok and they have come to a mutual respect :huggles:

Am so glad you have given yur dog another chance - it sounds like this experience is an exception.

Debs

 

[aslan]

I don't understand why there is so much deliberation about whether the dog intended to bite or not and comments about her being in the wrong!

Isn't it obvious that the dog is not at fault? Removing identities from the situation, consider the facts: dog is asleep, something falls on top of it, it awakes in fright and biting to protect itself.

The dog doesn't know what or who fell on it - just that something did and it was awoken with a terrible fright.

Consider if you were asleep and something heavy fell on top of you, what would you do? Wake up swinging, kicking, pushing, punching?

Regardless of who the dog and child were in this situation, in my eyes the child is at fault, especially if the child has been warned before not to do it.

Sorry Lesley, I don't mean to sound harsh about your boy and it's not my intention to criticise him - but the point I'm trying to make is that people tend to attribute way too much reasoning power to dogs in certain situations. When did Sienna ever get the chance/time to reason that it was Jordan who fell on her and that she shouldn't bite him? As far as I can tell she woke up biting in fright. And she cannot be blamed for that.

I am very glad that you can see this to some extent and that she is being given a second chance. She is not to blame for a very unfortunate incident. And I'm sure Jordan can see now why he's been warned not to do that.

 

[Seraphina]

Yes, I think there is a need to consider calmly all the circumstances and not to label a dog dangerous unless we can be sure of what exactly happened.

We had one incident, which if I was not present I could have very easily misconstrued. My daughter (about 3 y.o.) ran across darkened room, the black Dane was asleep on a dark rug. My daughter came from the behind of the dog, tripped over her and fell down on top of her. The dog startled, lifted her head, just high enough for my daughter's cheek hit her top canine tooth. Next second there was a standing dog, child screaming on the floor with a tooth mark on her cheek (skin was not broken). If I were not there watching events unfolding I would have definitely thought the dog has bitten her.

What happened to Jordan and Sienna is just one of those thing, nobody is to blame. Children learn by their mistakes, they are not capable to reason as well as we do.

Lida

 

[ILoveKettleChips]

Yes, I think there is a need to consider calmly all the circumstances and not to label a dog dangerous unless we can be sure of what exactly happened.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

This is a bit off topic but it's a joke in my family.

When I was little we had a gorgeous big hairy black GSD cross bitch - she looked like a huge black wolf. She was like a nanny for my Mum - she patiently put up with all the things 3 fearless kids do to dogs - she wore an assortment of clothing, she took part in several 'Swallows and Amazons' type adventures, and came everywhere with us, from swimming in the river to collecting pine cones in the woods.

One of her favourite things was chasing snowballs. One winter's day my dad had taken us out to the field to play, and while we sledged and built snowmen he chucked snowballs for the dog. It all went terribly wrong when (and only a man could be this dim) he thought it'd be funny to lob a snowball at me. Poor girl, she didn't think twice about galloping towards me and launching herself into mid-air after the snowball - cracking me on the forehead with her tooth and splitting my head right open!

The doctor was very concerned as she stitched me up - I don't think my Mum's panicked description of events did the dog any favours. All her life she only ever snapped once (and that was when she was disturbed from sleep), but the scar on my head definitely reminded all of us what dogs can do (even if she didn't mean to!).

Hope today is a better one Lesley )

 

[Max&Smokey]

Im glad everything seems to be working out.

In my opinion the dog must be very clear on where he/she stands within the family. This means not letting them sleep in your bed with you or on your furniture when they are alone. When they sleep it should be in their box.

The children in turn are never allowed to go to the dogs in their box this area is where the dogs can feel totally protected and know if they are feeling under the weather they will not be bothered.

If the dog makes any aggressive action towards a child even if its understandable i.e the child has done something wrong the dog should be told of first , put in their box. Then the child must be educated. But the dog must learn that there is no excuse to bite / growl at a child.

With all that I have said you can still have them on your furniture its just they learn that they can come up after you have sat down for a cuddle. Once they understand their place within the family their natural instincts seems to stop them acting aggressively towards a person higher up in the hierachy.

Good luck and I hope it all works out for you.

 

[melanie]

just wanted to sent you all lots of :huggles: :huggles: :huggles: :huggles: im so glad your keeping her, im sure she didnt mean to snap as im sure jorden didnt mean to make her snap either, we all do things sometimes without thinking you just learn from your mistake and move on, which im sure they both have

 

[~Sarah~]

  I own a Bull mastiff & a Border Terrier, both brought up around children and if one of my dogs so much as growled at one of my kids it would get a 'lead pipe massage', straight away. Dogs are Dogs, and they have got to know that!!    Sorry for upseting probably most of the forum but both my wife and i agree that the dog would have to go

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

You sound the sort that could do with a lead pipe massage yourself! I would hardly think that by doing something like that would put a dog in it's place! :rant: :rant:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Well said Debs. No dog deserves to be treated in that manner, whatever it has done. :rant: :rant:

 

[*Lesley*]

I don't understand why there is so much deliberation about whether the dog intended to bite or not and comments about her being in the wrong!
Isn't it obvious that the dog is not at fault?  Removing identities from the situation, consider the facts: dog is asleep, something falls on top of it, it awakes in fright and biting to protect itself.

The dog doesn't know what or who fell on it - just that something did and it was awoken with a terrible fright.

Consider if you were asleep and something heavy fell on top of you, what would you do?  Wake up swinging, kicking, pushing, punching? 

Regardless of who the dog and child were in this situation, in my eyes the child is at fault, especially if the child has been warned before not to do it.

Sorry Lesley, I don't mean to sound harsh about your boy and it's not my intention to criticise him - but the point I'm trying to make is that people tend to attribute way too much reasoning power to dogs in certain situations.  When did Sienna ever get the chance/time to reason that it was Jordan who fell on her and that she shouldn't bite him?    As far as I can tell she woke up biting in fright.  And she cannot be blamed for that.

I am very glad that you can see this to some extent and that she is being given a second chance.  She is not to blame for a very unfortunate incident.  And I'm sure Jordan can see now why he's been warned not to do that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Hiya Lana, when something like this happens all rationality goes out of the window for a time, see your 7 year old son upset and confused and bleeding, there is no time at that moment for why's and wherefors, I have said in my first post that this is not the first time all though in the past it has been a nip.

Jordan knows that what he did probably triggered her reaction but it is easy for a child to forget when she is such a loving dog in the main, and after all he paid the price for it didn't he maybe I should have said well it's your own fault and given sienna a pat on the back for not biting him too badly, I am not laying blame anywhere

As you will have probably noticed we are taking measures to make sure it doesn't happen again, and although I know the circumstance of why it happened,my son comes first Lana and when I wrote my first post in shock mainly I was inconsolable.

Luckily he has not been badly affected by this experience and was more upset at the thought of Sienna leaving than anything else, I never wanted to rehome sienna nor did my OH but please put yourself in my position and think about what it was like at the time of happening, we were all very shaken and it's hard to think rationally at the time.

 

[Hilary & Hounds]

I've had a couple of incidents like this with kids who don't listen to their parents! The first was my godson whne he was about 19 months old. He was told not to bother Freddie (greyhound) when he was sleeping. Freddie has personal space issues and will warn anybody and everybody off if he's disturbed. Obviously the baby didn't pay attention, his parents didn't stop him, and he woke Freddie. Fortunately, Freddie didn't snap at him but just rose up barking loudly as if offended and then walked off. Baby burst into tears with mother saying "serves you right, I told you not to"! :angry: It was Freddie who came back and comforted the child, licking his tears away!! Child was then grinning from ear to ear! :lol:

Sounds like the same thing with Jordan and Sienna, although involving Jordan in their care and reinforcing his higher place in the pack sounds like a good idea too. :thumbsup:

:huggles: :huggles: to all of you!

 

[TC]

I've had a couple of incidents like this with kids who don't listen to their parents! The first was my godson whne he was about 19 months old. He was told not to bother Freddie (greyhound) when he was sleeping. Freddie has personal space issues and will warn anybody and everybody off if he's disturbed. Obviously the baby didn't pay attention, his parents didn't stop him, and he woke Freddie. Fortunately, Freddie didn't snap at him but just rose up barking loudly as if offended and then walked off. Baby burst into tears with mother saying "serves you right, I told you not to"! :angry:   It was Freddie who came back and comforted the child, licking his tears away!! Child was then grinning from ear to ear! :lol:
Sounds like the same thing with Jordan and Sienna, although involving Jordan in their care and reinforcing his higher place in the pack sounds like a good idea too. :thumbsup:

:huggles:   :huggles: to all of you!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

This is a lovely story and one that I think sums everything up very nicely.

Lesley, as a mother and a dog lover I understand everything that you went through. I have just come in on this thread and read though everything and am really glad of the outcome for all concerned.

I certainly do not want to aggravate the situation, but I just want to tell you a story from my past when I was co-running a rottie rescue years ago. This is in no way intended to say that Jordan is anything like the child in question, just trying to illustrate how I beleive that there are very few instances of dogs biting that do not have a reason behind them (please be assured I am fully aware of serious issues with breeding and guard training that causes problems but I am talking about pets and home environments with known dogs here)

We were called to a persons home late on a sunday night by a lady screaming hysterically down the phone to come and get her dog or her husband was going to hit it over the head with a spade. We left straight away....

Once at the persons house we asked her to explain what had happened. Their seven year old rottie had started to growl on occasion for a few days when their three year old son had approached or touched it (they had reprimanded the dog and shut it in a cupboard) That evening their child had let the dog out and was playing with it when it started growling again and bit the childs hand. It DID not draw blood. They went through the emotions that you did, we can't have this happen again, we must get rid of the dog......

We asked to see the dog, who was a very, very friendly soppy individual who immediately rolled over on it's back and asked for it's tummy to be tickled (clasic submission) however, when my partner started to stroke the dogs head it seemed agitated, and as his hand went behind the dogs ear for a nice rub the dog growled and bared it's teeth. We asked if the dog had ear problems, and they said no, not at all. The long and short of the evening was that we asked to take the dog for an investigative behavioural session and also to see our vet. They finally agreed and we told them we would update them. The husband wanted us to just take the dog and "get rid" but the wife was obviously very attached to her pet and so wanted to try anything.

To cut this very long story :b short, the dog was taken to our vet first thing in the morning and after surgery on the monday morning a four and a half inch broken pencil was removed from her ear canal. Now, you and I both know that she didn't put it there herself.

Thankfully owner and dog were reunited, and the little boy was given a bit of a talking to and was supervised for a long time. We kept in touch and the dog enjoyed life with her family for another 5 years before passing away in her sleep, there never was another incident.......

I am sure that things will be fine for you and yours, Jordan has learnt that he must respect the girls and their space and I am sure that their relationship will go from strength to strength :thumbsup:

 

[OEH]

Wow, don't know how I missed this yesterday. Poor you Lesley, what an awful day, I think you've made the right decision to keep her, really doesn't sound like she meant anything nasty at all. I growl at the dogs if they wake me up, and might even bite them occasionally if I could :lol: .

It sounds like poor Sienna arranged her own punishment :b .

It is really hard to remember that your best friend is actually an animal with the equipment to kill and has strong self preservation instincts, so :huggles: to Jordan.

Brokenbrain- if you punish a dog with agression they learn to react to situations with agression and also lose their trust in you. I have no objection to a firm tap with your hand if teeth have been used, even by mistake, just so they don't forget again, but the thought of lead piping...............

 

[~Helen~]

How are things today, Lesley?

:luck:

 

[Moo.UK]

Hi Lesley - i've only just caught up on this thread.

What an awful time you've had I'm so glad that Jordan is ok and that you have managed to work everything out and keep Sienna :cheers:

Only a week ago my gran was bitten by her little dog when she accidentally woke her from a dream - according to her vet this is quite a common thing. Lotty would never usually bite and is still sorry now - she tries to lick my grans finger better :huggles:

Sometimes when ten gets on the furniture he can be abit grumbly especially now theres 2 hounds in the house - blue will often wake him and startle a good old grumble out of him! :wacko:

I hope everything returns to normal soon :thumbsup: Emma, Ten & Blue.xxx

 

[*Lesley*]

How are things today, Lesley?
:luck:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Better today thanks helen, I am still a bit shaken by the whole thing and I've got a headache must have dehydrated myself shedding bucket loads :b and Jordan is fine with it all, he came in the kitchen today to tell me Sienna was on the sofa, which I have told him to do, he has'nt changed his view of her still loves her to bits :huggles:

The support I recieved from you and everyone else helped me so much yesterday I am very grateful for that, thankyou for all your emails and well wishes and thanx to Mark for the phone call, no doubt I'll be in for some ribbing saturday for being a wuss :lol:

 

[Mark Roberts]

Lesley, you'll get no ribbing from me lass, if I can help just ring. :thumbsup:

 

[BeeJay]

You aren't and haven't been a wuss Lesley.

It's a horrible situation for you to have been in and I'm not surprised that you cried about it all. Glad to hear that Jordan is okay about it all. :thumbsup:

 

[*Lesley*]

Lesley, you'll get no ribbing from me lass, if I can help just ring.  :thumbsup:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Thanks Mark I will :huggles:

 

[aslan]

But the dog must learn that there is no excuse to bite / growl at a child.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I disagree. What about the rottie with the pencil shoved into its ear - you don't think it had a right to growl? Or bite if someone had rubbed the ear hard? How else do you expect it to say "don't touch me there"?

Many people forget that dogs only have three ways of telling you that they don't appreciate what you're doing or reacting in shocked fear - (1) to run away ( 2) to growl (3) to bite. They don't have many options and many people expect them to be able to reason out which option would be best for the "person" involved?

Dog: "kid is flogging me with a baseball bat - aww he's only a kid I'd better not bite him, it's wrong to bite a child, so I'd better just run away"

Dog: " burglar is flogging me with baseball bat - mmm he's a burglar, he's an adult, my owner would say it's ok to bite him".

No-one can convince me that dogs have the ability to reason about their actions before they complete them. Especially in a situation of shock or fear.