Wcra Talk-in

[Joanna]

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Could not get any backing either from a lot of the racers there either so it died the death as do most things which have not been done for 40 years old

I think this will continue to be a problem. It isn't just racing and dogs, it is the same in many aspects of life. Human beings are often very reluctant to embrace change and any proposals to do things differently are often met with opposition. It is utterly frustrating particularly when there is no good reason to maintain old practices. Part of the problem has been the fuddy duddies in the Whippet Club blocking suggstions, but I think the racing fraternity has some very change-resisitant elements and this can be off-putting to people who are new to the sport. There are many aspects of whippet racing I would like to see reviewed, but I don't think it will ever happen. I am extremely pleased that there have been some small changes like a measuring check, perhaps Kim will represent a more modern approach in her role.

Going back to height, though it is going round in circles, pedigree whippets are not there to look nice we are not complying with or trying to meet the breed standard in any other way. These animals are bred for speed, to be the fastest over a measured distance, it doesn't matter if they have got three heads so why are we even referring to the breed standard which is largely ignored on the height issue by breeders of show dogs any-way!

The one issue I will raise is that many of us limit the number of whippets we own. If I make a decision to aquire another dog, it will be considered very carefully. As I have committed to being involved in racing, I would want my puppy to to be a racing bred dog. If I got a bitch and she measured up too tall and her litter brother was the same height and could race, I would be infuriated. It just isn't fair. Oh and I actually like big whippets which is just as well as they are getting biggger and will continue to do so I expect.

Any-way, there isn't any more to say really and I daresay this and any other suggestions raised at the talk-in will be met with considerable opposition so I shouldn't worry about it opposers.

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pmsl :lol: where do you buy you muzzles for the 3 headed whippet (w00t)

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Well the three-headed whippet muzzle shop obviously Durrrrrrrrrr

 

[TC]

I think this will continue to be a problem. It isn't just racing and dogs, it is the same in many aspects of life. Human beings are often very reluctant to embrace change and any proposals to do things differently are often met with opposition.

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Well Jo, I can honestly say this is about change from my point of view :thumbsup: I can also honestly say I'm quite good at dealing with change, it's been the main focus of the last 10 years in my job (w00t)

In the same way as the people that want change keep saying 'tell us why we shouldn't' I suppose I just want someone to tell me why it should be changed, other than 'it's not fair' as that doesn't really seem a justifiable reason in my mind. Bitches are simply smaller than dogs, or they should be :thumbsup:

TCx

 

[TC]

hi tc well I think I HAVE BEEN AROUND whippets and greyhounds for a considerabletime .having worked in a ngrc racing kennels for many years and not just picking

up the poo  :lol:

IT was always the dogs which seemed to be the faster not the bitches?

and when we raced whippets 30yrs ago their was hardly any small whippets

around compared to todays.

I don,t think the whippet will end up the size of a greyhound bit far fetched

I don,t mind if the limit stays the same but this is  a topic worth looking at to see

if the dogs and bitches could be the same .

I don,t agree with your comment on bigger dogs thundering down the track

I think the bigger dog looks more elegant they don,t have to put so many strides

in so look more flowing .

I don,t think julie was having a pop at anyone just because she has only been

racing for a couple of years  she has been brought up with racing dogs all

her life :thumbsup:

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LOL about the poo (w00t)

The dogs v bitches thing speed wise fascinates me. I was always led to believe that bitches were faster then dogs for the same reason as Gay talked about, from my time working with vets, but I've never seen any conclusive proof just studies that weren't official. I'd be really interested to hear from Gay if she has managed to find her reference material :thumbsup:

TCx

 

[Joanna]

I think this will continue to be a problem. It isn't just racing and dogs, it is the same in many aspects of life. Human beings are often very reluctant to embrace change and any proposals to do things differently are often met with opposition.

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Well Jo, I can honestly say this is about change from my point of view :thumbsup: I can also honestly say I'm quite good at dealing with change, it's been the main focus of the last 10 years in my job (w00t)

In the same way as the people that want change keep saying 'tell us why we shouldn't' I suppose I just want someone to tell me why it should be changed, other than 'it's not fair' as that doesn't really seem a justifiable reason in my mind. Bitches are simply smaller than dogs, or they should be :thumbsup:

TCx

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I am sure that is the case Tracey, but in fairness and as you have stated, you haven't really been that involved with racing recently (this is not meant to be patronising or insulting in any way). Your interests with whippets are quite diverse and I am sure that gives you a different perspective. Also, you haven't gone out and bought a "racing bred" whippet for that purpose alone. If you want your dogs to be multi-purpose, fine, if I want a racing dog, I'll get one for that purpose and it doesn't matter what it looks like or how big or small it is as long as I can race it.

We aren't going to change your mind but if the issue is raised at the WCRA Talk-in, it may be aswell for you to state your views to the club you belong to as they will need to send representation to vote for or against any changes that are raised on the agenda.

 

[Judy]

I can understand that a different height limit for dogs and bitches might seem unfair and I can totally understand that it would seem very unfair if a 20 1/2 inch bitch couldn't race but her brother of the same size could. I'd be pretty upset too.

But, just a thought that's got nothing to do with the breed standard. Height is a continually variable polygenetic charateristic. Its controlled partly by plus and minus alleles of several different genes that add or subtract from a certain height. For instance if the 'standard' height of whippets was 19" then a dog that received half plus alleles and half minus alleles would be 19". A dog that received more plus alleles than minus would be bigger and obviously a dog that relieved more minus than plus would be smaller. It doesn't matter which plus or minus genes it receives from which parent. All that matters is the number it receives of each type in total. However a small dog or bitch is likely to have less plus alleles than minus ones to pass on and vice versa which is why it is possible to select for size. However if it passed on a greater proportion of its plus ones than its minus ones it could still help increase the size of its offspring.

But the on top of that there are sex limited genes which mean that dogs are bigger than bitches. Their actual size is then modified by how many 'plus' v 'minus' genes it has inherited.

So a bitch with exactly the same number of plus and minus genes as her brother will be smaller due to the sex limited genes.

So if there is the same height limit for dogs and bitches, them a higher proportion of dogs will be over the limit than bitches.

Is that fair either?

Is there even a right answer?

 

[Joanna]

I can understand that a different height limit for dogs and bitches might seem unfair and I can totally understand that it would seem very unfair if a 20 1/2 inch bitch couldn't race but her brother of the same size could. I'd be pretty upset too.
But, just a thought that's got nothing to do with the breed standard.  Height is a continually variable polygenetic charateristic. Its controlled partly by plus and minus alleles of several different genes  that add or subtract from a certain height. For instance if the 'standard' height of whippets was 19" then a dog that received half plus alleles and half minus alleles would be 19". A dog that received more plus alleles than minus would be bigger and obviously a dog that relieved more minus than plus would be smaller. It doesn't matter which plus or minus genes it receives from which parent. All that matters is the number it receives of each type in total. However a small dog or bitch is likely to have less plus alleles than minus ones to pass on and vice versa which is why it is possible to select for size.  However if it passed on a greater proportion of its plus ones than its minus ones it could still help increase the size of its offspring.

But the on top of that there are sex limited genes which mean that dogs are bigger than bitches. Their actual size is then modified by how many 'plus' v 'minus' genes it has inherited.

So a bitch with exactly the same number of plus and minus genes as her brother will be smaller due to the sex limited genes.

So if there is the same height limit for dogs and bitches, them a higher proportion of dogs will be over the limit than bitches.

Is that fair either?

Is there even a right answer?

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I think that's a real conversation stopper Judy!

 

[Judy]

I think that's a real conversation stopper Judy!

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:lol:

 

[Rob Rixon]

Just looking back at some of this years programmes for some times.

Germany - Hannover Open Track 360m 3-bends

Dogs and bitches separated all groups run to a final - electronic timing on all runners. Results of the final winners are as follows

Whippets G class

Dog - 24.930 Bitch - 24.360

Whippets A class

Dog - 24.000 Bitch - 23.980

Afghans B class over 480 4-bends

Dog - 39.41 Bitches - 39.17

These were only the classes with big entries - others too small a sample to judge.

If I get time over the weeend I'll dig out some of the other Euro meeting we went to. 8)

 

[TC]

Is that fair either?

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Maybe not in some people's eyes, but it's nature so it's tough really (w00t)

Great post Jusy...do you know anything about bitches being faster than dogs :- "

TCx

 

[TC]

I think this will continue to be a problem. It isn't just racing and dogs, it is the same in many aspects of life. Human beings are often very reluctant to embrace change and any proposals to do things differently are often met with opposition.

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Well Jo, I can honestly say this is about change from my point of view :thumbsup: I can also honestly say I'm quite good at dealing with change, it's been the main focus of the last 10 years in my job (w00t)

In the same way as the people that want change keep saying 'tell us why we shouldn't' I suppose I just want someone to tell me why it should be changed, other than 'it's not fair' as that doesn't really seem a justifiable reason in my mind. Bitches are simply smaller than dogs, or they should be :thumbsup:

TCx

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I am sure that is the case Tracey, but in fairness and as you have stated, you haven't really been that involved with racing recently (this is not meant to be patronising or insulting in any way). Your interests with whippets are quite diverse and I am sure that gives you a different perspective. Also, you haven't gone out and bought a "racing bred" whippet for that purpose alone. If you want your dogs to be multi-purpose, fine, if I want a racing dog, I'll get one for that purpose and it doesn't matter what it looks like or how big or small it is as long as I can race it.

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Maybe so Jo (although poor winx is VERY offended 8) ) but in the same vein you don't own bitches either yet seem as involved as I am

I love a good debate me, and as you know I am BIG on height (w00t) 8) :- "

TCx

 

[peppermint lady]

I can understand that a different height limit for dogs and bitches might seem unfair and I can totally understand that it would seem very unfair if a 20 1/2 inch bitch couldn't race but her brother of the same size could. I'd be pretty upset too.
But, just a thought that's got nothing to do with the breed standard.  Height is a continually variable polygenetic charateristic. Its controlled partly by plus and minus alleles of several different genes  that add or subtract from a certain height. For instance if the 'standard' height of whippets was 19" then a dog that received half plus alleles and half minus alleles would be 19". A dog that received more plus alleles than minus would be bigger and obviously a dog that relieved more minus than plus would be smaller. It doesn't matter which plus or minus genes it receives from which parent. All that matters is the number it receives of each type in total. However a small dog or bitch is likely to have less plus alleles than minus ones to pass on and vice versa which is why it is possible to select for size.  However if it passed on a greater proportion of its plus ones than its minus ones it could still help increase the size of its offspring.

But the on top of that there are sex limited genes which mean that dogs are bigger than bitches. Their actual size is then modified by how many 'plus' v 'minus' genes it has inherited.

So a bitch with exactly the same number of plus and minus genes as her brother will be smaller due to the sex limited genes.

So if there is the same height limit for dogs and bitches, them a higher proportion of dogs will be over the limit than bitches.

Is that fair either?

Is there even a right answer?

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:blink: :wacko: :lol:

 

[TC]

Just looking back at some of this years programmes for some times.
Germany - Hannover Open  Track 360m 3-bends

Dogs and bitches separated all groups run to a final - electronic timing on all runners.  Results of the final winners are as follows

Whippets G class

Dog - 24.930  Bitch - 24.360

Whippets A class

Dog - 24.000  Bitch - 23.980

Afghans B class over 480 4-bends

Dog - 39.41  Bitches - 39.17

These were only the classes with big entries - others too small a sample to judge.

If I get time over the weeend I'll dig out some of the other Euro meeting we went to. 8)

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Thanks Rob, very interesting stuff :thumbsup: Will look forward to reading any other stats you have

TCx

 

[Rob Rixon]

Hi all

Just found the programme from Beringen, Belgium

345m 3-bends

Whippet Sprinters (over size) Time of class final winners

Dog - 22.18 Bitch - 22.36

Whippets class C

Dog - 22.99 Bitch - 23.09

Whippets B class

Dog - 22.56 Bitch - 22.59

Whippets A class

Dog - 21.96 Bitch - 2199

So not much in it on this track :lol:

 

[peppermint lady]

Hi allJust found the programme from Beringen, Belgium

345m 3-bends

Whippet Sprinters (over size) Time of class final winners

Dog - 22.18  Bitch - 22.36

Whippets class C

Dog - 22.99 Bitch - 23.09

Whippets B class

Dog - 22.56  Bitch - 22.59

Whippets A class

Dog - 21.96  Bitch - 2199

So not much in it on this track :lol:

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:thumbsup:

 

[Joanna]

I think this will continue to be a problem. It isn't just racing and dogs, it is the same in many aspects of life. Human beings are often very reluctant to embrace change and any proposals to do things differently are often met with opposition.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Well Jo, I can honestly say this is about change from my point of view :thumbsup: I can also honestly say I'm quite good at dealing with change, it's been the main focus of the last 10 years in my job (w00t)

In the same way as the people that want change keep saying 'tell us why we shouldn't' I suppose I just want someone to tell me why it should be changed, other than 'it's not fair' as that doesn't really seem a justifiable reason in my mind. Bitches are simply smaller than dogs, or they should be :thumbsup:

TCx

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I am sure that is the case Tracey, but in fairness and as you have stated, you haven't really been that involved with racing recently (this is not meant to be patronising or insulting in any way). Your interests with whippets are quite diverse and I am sure that gives you a different perspective. Also, you haven't gone out and bought a "racing bred" whippet for that purpose alone. If you want your dogs to be multi-purpose, fine, if I want a racing dog, I'll get one for that purpose and it doesn't matter what it looks like or how big or small it is as long as I can race it.

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Maybe so Jo (although poor winx is VERY offended 8) ) but in the same vein you don't own bitches either yet seem as involved as I am

I love a good debate me, and as you know I am BIG on height (w00t) 8) :- "

TCx

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Funnily enough the dogs we have owned prior to whippets were bitches. You wouldn't have been able to tell what sex the GSD was, she was a big bitch.

Winx is used to being offended by me, if you remember I accused him of being a show-bred when I first met him Shows how much I know, not alot !

 

[BeeJay]

WELL I HOPE THAT YOU HAVE ALL PUT PEN TO PAPER AND WRITTEN OUT YOUR POINTS FOR CONSIDERATION AT THE TALK-IN. I HAVE DONE MINE. :thumbsup:

 

[Joanna]

WELL I HOPE THAT YOU HAVE ALL PUT PEN TO PAPER AND WRITTEN OUT YOUR POINTS FOR CONSIDERATION AT THE TALK-IN.  I HAVE DONE MINE. :thumbsup:

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I put mine forward to our secretary yesterday. Well done for starting this thread Rob, it has certainly generated some interesting topics 8)

 

[SUNDANCE]

It seems that all the owners with big male racing whippets are opposed to raising the height limit for bitches. Are they afraid of the competition? If the height limit was raised, it doesn't mean that everyone has to have 21 inch bitches. If you like small bitches then you could still have them. Some people like big bitches. Currently there are nine championship groups. Dogs can run in all of them. By limiting bitches to 20 inches, they are probably only going to be represented in seven weight groups (with the very rare exception of one or two running in the 30lb group). This is unfair and prejudiced against bitches. The whippet club standard isn't worth a hoot, as it is totally ignored by the Whippet club in the show ring. Would it be such a tragedy if there was the occasional bitch in the 32lb group? It might mean that there would be a decent amount of dogs in the group rather than the 5 or 6 we often see at championships. We often see dogs moved up to the 32lb group because everyone knows there are hardly any dogs in the group.

If big bitches aren't your thing, then don't get one. But, don't tell everyone else that they can't have one.

 

[Darcia]

Ive been on the fence up until that post - but I think youve won me over with that arguement Rob. If I had to vote I would go with the change then, some good points.

 

[TC]

It seems that all the owners with big male racing whippets are opposed to raising the height limit for bitches.  Are they afraid of the competition?  If the height limit was raised, it doesn't mean that everyone has to have 21 inch bitches.   If you like small bitches then you could still have them.  Some people like big bitches.  Currently there are nine championship groups.  Dogs can run in all of them.  By limiting bitches to 20 inches, they are probably only going to be represented in seven weight groups (with the very rare exception of one or two running in the 30lb group).  This is unfair and prejudiced against bitches.  The whippet club standard isn't worth a hoot, as it is totally ignored by the Whippet club in the show ring.  Would it be such a tragedy if there was the occasional bitch in the 32lb group?  It might mean that there would be a decent amount of dogs in the group rather than the 5 or 6 we often see at championships.  We often see dogs moved up to the 32lb group because everyone knows there are hardly any dogs in the group.  If big bitches aren't your thing, then don't get one.  But, don't tell everyone else that they can't have one.

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Some good points there, did notice the use of the word 'probably' though :- " You haven't changed my mind that whippet bitches should be 21" tall but I do think you will make an impression on a lot of people who don't care how tall whippets are.

I would just like to point out that my thoughts are not based on the competition against my dog, but for the good of the breed.

TCx