What Drives A Breed

[Juley]

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My dog has won Ch show firsts and has done his clearing trials to race, so come on Patsy there are dual purpose whippets, don't insult the working folk they love their dogs too.
K9 I thought was for all whippet people not just show folk.

Predudice is creeping in on this thread now so I am off.

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Right, and its not insulting to suggest that show judges just " pick their friends". If that was the case then I hardly think around 200 people would enter a champ show at aroung £25 a time plus fuel costs. I'm all for living and letting live but lets not insult the show people either.

 

[patsy]

What drives a breed the people who own it & use it for what it was intended filling the pot/vermin control/racing.

Great dogs & bitches come & go but its the breeders with the knowladge to use such stock in the right way who help push the breed forward.

What part do JUDGES play well where do we start a judge judging coursing picks the dog on its ability/A line judge pics the fastest dog/bitch on speed/merit. The show judge picks his/her friend most of the time with the thought of you scratch my back i will scratch yours mentality.

Our friends in Europe or the U.S well thier dogs are more like small greyhounds than whippets size has gone wild which will throw all conformation out of the window a big whippet also looses the running action of the breed we see this rubbish about breeding true to type the type of whippet bred to start with was a functional hunting dog not a fluffy toy to dress up & strut around a show ring with while breeding against everything the breed was intended for.

Do Judges change a breed without doubt as the breeding of 2 champions does not mean that its a good mating example the sire of the first whippet to win crufts was Hillsdown Fergal & he was also the grandsire of the only other whippet to win crufts that tells you its down to the breeder to produce the goods from their knowladge not what the judge has to asy in the way they put up the winners.

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What a load of absolute poppycock. (w00t) I was lucky enough to be allowed to buy a really well bred bitch, she and her offspring have done really well. I don't judge ( well actually I have judged one open show since!) and neither do the other two owners who show my breeding. If you have a really good dog/bitch, you will usually do well with them. I am SICK of reading this sort of comment.

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Get real all of Dorit Mckays stock were tested in the field & most on the race track & she produced more champions this way than anyone I SAY AGAIN A FUNTIONAL BREED or MULTIPURPOSE BREED.

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You go and be functional and let us enjoy our showing. So you have proved a point with show bred whippets.

What are you trying to say about Hillsdown Fergal, he was bred to breed on, and he was retired from the showring due to injury, so he could have been a Champion, he did win a R.C'C.

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[bertha]

My dog has won Ch show firsts and has done his clearing trials to race, so come on Patsy there are dual purpose whippets, don't insult the working folk they love their dogs too.
K9 I thought was for all whippet people not just show folk.

Predudice is creeping in on this thread now so I am off.

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Right, and its not insulting to suggest that show judges just " pick their friends". If that was the case then I hardly think around 200 people would enter a champ show at aroung £25 a time plus fuel costs. I'm all for living and letting live but lets not insult the show people either.

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[/quote

I was not. and I am off now. For good.

 

[UKUSA]

Well Penny Meadow where do we start? First of all I would like to know why those of you who do not show and I am ofcourse assuming that you dont, feel that it is necessary to come on to a show board and insult those of us that dont do things "your" way? Do we come and insult you? For most of us this is as important a pastime with our dogs as yours is to you, the Whippet is a versatile breed , there is room for all of us.

You make some very sweeping statements about the show ring are they based on your own experiences or those of disgruntled friends? No you are right the show ring is not based on ability it is based on opinions and if you dont like it you dont have to show but their must be a lot of us that do as Whippets have the largest hound entry at any of the championship shows, either that or we all have a lot of friends to do us favours.

Im again assuming that you have nt been to the U.S or Europe and looked at Whippets on either continent because if you had you would know that Europe shows under F.C.I rules and they are stricter than we are about size as for America they measure far more than we do.And who dresses Whippets up like fluffy toys-------- none of us.

Hillsdown Fergal........... one of the most important sires the breed has known but you obviously dont know that Fergal didnt come out of no where, I believe that I am correct in saying that Fergal had a R.C.C and then Phil injured his back which put paid to Fergals show career.

Surely at the end of the day the welfare of our dogs and the versatility of our breed should unite us , whatever discipline we enjoy but it seems that those of you that dont show cannot leave us alone. Before you come on and accuse us of all kinds of betrayal and skulduggery get your facts straight.

Nicky

 

[Pennymeadow Whippets]

Get real all of Dorit Mckays stock were tested in the field & most on the race track & she produced more champions this way than anyone I SAY AGAIN A FUNTIONAL BREED or MULTIPURPOSE BREED.

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You go and be functional and let us enjoy our showing. So you have proved a point with show bred whippets.

What are you trying to say about Hillsdown Fergal, he was bred to breed on, and he was retired from the showring due to injury, so he could have been a Champion, he did win a R.C'C.

I have been functional for many years thank you i have no axe to grind with whippet shows i have done quite a few & bred whippets that have also done quite well.

Hillsdown Fergal was not a champion & no one could say he would have been but the FACT is he did produce multipurpose whippets my friends owned them they worked raced coursed pre ban lure coursed & won in the show ring.

This is one of my Funtional whippets one that your husband made some realy nice comments about at the Midland counties show in 2005 she has won shows/races/lure courses & has caught more live quarry than most whippets as do her offspring to be truthful she is enjoying life to the full:wink:

 

[T Hoare]

The Whippet is a very versitile breed.

Some of us choose to show, some race and some course our whippets.

There are some that do more than one activity and that is up to the individual. Then of course there are many that do none of the above.

 

[Pennymeadow Whippets]

The Whippet is a very versitile breed. Some of us choose to show, some race and some course our whippets.

There are some that do more than one activity and that is up to the individual. Then of course there are many that do none of the above.

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Spot on someone i agree with. :thumbsup:

 

[Pennymeadow Whippets]

No Penny Meadow that is nt what you have said .Nicky

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Here is what i said so far :thumbsup:

What drives a breed the people who own it & use it for what it was intended filling the pot/vermin control/racing.

Great dogs & bitches come & go but its the breeders with the knowladge to use such stock in the right way who help push the breed forward.

What part do JUDGES play well where do we start a judge judging coursing picks the dog on its ability/A line judge pics the fastest dog/bitch on speed/merit. The show judge picks his/her friend most of the time with the thought of you scratch my back i will scratch yours mentality.

Our friends in Europe or the U.S well thier dogs are more like small greyhounds than whippets size has gone wild which will throw all conformation out of the window a big whippet also looses the running action of the breed we see this rubbish about breeding true to type the type of whippet bred to start with was a functional hunting dog not a fluffy toy to dress up & strut around a show ring with while breeding against everything the breed was intended for.

Do Judges change a breed without doubt as the breeding of 2 champions does not mean that its a good mating example the sire of the first whippet to win crufts was Hillsdown Fergal & he was also the grandsire of the only other whippet to win crufts that tells you its down to the breeder to produce the goods from their knowladge not what the judge has to asy in the way they put up the winners.

Get real all of Dorit Mckays stock were tested in the field & most on the race track & she produced more champions this way than anyone I SAY AGAIN A FUNTIONAL BREED or MULTIPURPOSE BREED.

I have been functional for many years thank you i have no axe to grind with whippet shows i have done quite a few & bred whippets that have also done quite well.

Hillsdown Fergal was not a champion & no one could say he would have been but the FACT is he did produce multipurpose whippets my friends owned them they worked raced coursed pre ban lure coursed & won in the show ring.

This is one of my Funtional whippets one that your husband made some realy nice comments about at the Midland counties show in 2005 she has won shows/races/lure courses & has caught more live quarry than most whippets as do her offspring to be truthful she is enjoying life to the full:wink:

Spot on someone i agree with

Yep thats what i said & just because we disagree about the judging you all throw your toys out of your pram i thought this was a grown up debate

 

[ROSIE MEADOWS]

It is unrealistic to suggest that all judges favour their friends and it is also unrealistic to say that some never do. It is something that happens sometimes in showing, (and I mean that in a general sense, not just dog showing).

We are all entitled to our own opinions. I used to show horses and sometimes won against the big names and sometimes didn't. Some lines could be shown by anybody and win, sometimes favouritism (somebody the judge knew bred it), sometimes because they were good and deserved to win.

Many people enter and never win even with good stock. I think you pay your money and take your chance. I personally didn't like the politics involved, you can loose good friends in an argument about the final line up and I don't think it is worth it. Winning can become too important for some people, it needs to be kept in perspective.

I wish good luck to everybody with their whippets in whatever way they choose to enjoy them :cheers:

 

[T Hoare]

It is unrealistic to suggest that all judges favour their friends and it is also unrealistic to say that some never do.  It is something that happens sometimes in showing, (and I mean that in a general sense, not just dog showing).
We are all entitled to our own opinions.  I used to show horses and sometimes won against the big names and sometimes didn't.  Some lines could be shown by anybody and win, sometimes favouritism (somebody the judge knew bred it), sometimes because they were good and deserved to win.

Many people enter and never win even with good stock.  I think you pay your money and take your chance.  I personally didn't like the politics involved, you can loose good friends in an argument about the final line up and I don't think it is worth it.  Winning can become too important for some people, it needs to be kept in perspective.

I wish good luck to everybody with their whippets in whatever way they choose to enjoy them :cheers:

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Well said Rosie, I agree with most of your post :thumbsup:

 

[Pennymeadow Whippets]

Good reply Rosie i agree with most of your post but like this bit it is also unrealistic to say that some never do. It is something that happens sometimes in showing.

 

[ROSIE MEADOWS]

When I was a little girl with a leading rein pony, it got to be known that a certain judge was told to look out for the little girl with the braids and red ribbons.

Yes you've guessed it. All the other mums got together and duly presented their daughters with braided hair and red ribbons.

One judge with a very red face and one mother with a purple one.

 

[T Hoare]

Please calm down we don't want this thread locked.

We all have an opinion which some share and some don't.

 

[UKUSA]

Back again, I thought most people could discuss things without slagging off the people who work or race their whippets.
What gives Nicky the right to have a go at some one she doesn't know.

Honestly, having been involved with the breed longer than most on here, may be I haven't got a champion, but really you show lot are gettting just a bit too uptight. I have been showing dogs since the late 50s, your debate has got out of hand. NOBODY but NOBODY knows everything, just because you show and judge does not give you the right to have a go.

I give up on this forum, you really are a biggoted lot.

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Well Bertha nice to have you back if only for a short while. Just to set the record straight I have not slagged off anyone for working or racing their Whippets., in fact its been the other way around and as for what gives me the right to have a go well its the same right that others seem to have when they start on us. And thats me done Im off to bed, one thing before I go to bed and sleep the sleep of the just, you have a look through the posts Bertha or should I say Anne and you tell me who started "having a go" Night

Nicky

 

[Pennymeadow Whippets]

Night Nicky -_-

 

[Pennymeadow Whippets]

Night ladies sleep tight hope you get many red rosetts in your dream tonight & thanks for a good debate yours in sport Pennymeadow o .

 

[Seraphina]

I would have thought its all a matter of balance, someone once said to me that if one particular part of the dog stood out such as wow what a long neck, or fantastic sweeping stifles then it is usually wrong and out of balance with the rest of the dogA balanced combination  is how a whippet looks and functions best, that dosnt mean however a stuffy individual as elegance is also breed requirement

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Absolutely, well balanced, sound and without exaggeration is what the standard calls for. Aiming for "outstanding" means breeding for something that will stand out of the crowd, which means it is different. If somebody talks about "fabulously long" neck, it means to me neck unusually long. That also means that if many people will use this dog, in few years time the once "fabulously long" will be just ordinary, while the new "fabulously long" will be a girraffe . That is how breeds change, often to their detriment.

 

[UKUSA]

I would have thought its all a matter of balance, someone once said to me that if one particular part of the dog stood out such as wow what a long neck, or fantastic sweeping stifles then it is usually wrong and out of balance with the rest of the dogA balanced combination  is how a whippet looks and functions best, that dosnt mean however a stuffy individual as elegance is also breed requirement

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Absolutely, well balanced, sound and without exaggeration is what the standard calls for. Aiming for "outstanding" means breeding for something that will stand out of the crowd, which means it is different. If somebody talks about "fabulously long" neck, it means to me neck unusually long. That also means that if many people will use this dog, in few years time the once "fabulously long" will be just ordinary, while the new "fabulously long" will be a girraffe . That is how breeds change, often to their detriment.

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Well it just goes to show how words can mean different things to different people. To me "outstanding" means just that, better in all departments maybe, in the context of the show ring, fit the bill in all departments, better than the rest.... just better. I never thought that so many people would have such a problem with the word fabulous, so what about a fabulous mover or fabulous coat and skin or even "he was a fabulous producer"? As for breeding dogs with necks like Giraffes well who would do that?

Nicky

 

[JAX]

I have raced greyhounds (not show ring) and I have show whippets (not race whippets). The one key factor that a top race dog MUST have that has absolutely nothing to do with the show ring and that is the KEENNESS factor. I have had greyhounds that can go like the wind but won't chase the lure or won't chase in a field of dogs. I know that most of Australia's top racers wouldn't even get a ribbon in the show ring in this country.
To say that a dog is to long in the loin of to long in the neck would be unable to chase and/or catch a rabbit is absurd imo. The breed standard is there for a reason and that is to give the judges/breeders an ideal to strive for. To have an opinion that a deviation would render a whippet unable to perform it's duty to chase and be agile while doing it, is quite far fetched.

when you have standard neck description of " long, muscular, elegantly arched" it does leave alot to the imagination. How long is to long? how short is to short? what is elegantly arched? how much is to much?............who knows and that is where personal opinion varies and probably why people will never 100% agree on topics like this    . It is fun to discuss though.

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Quite agree with you here 100%

I too have had racing greyhounds and show whippets

and you can have the keenest dog in the world , but if it isnt fast enough it will catch nothing, nor win any races

 

[parnew]

I have raced greyhounds (not show ring) and I have show whippets (not race whippets). The one key factor that a top race dog MUST have that has absolutely nothing to do with the show ring and that is the KEENNESS factor. I have had greyhounds that can go like the wind but won't chase the lure or won't chase in a field of dogs. I know that most of Australia's top racers wouldn't even get a ribbon in the show ring in this country.
To say that a dog is to long in the loin of to long in the neck would be unable to chase and/or catch a rabbit is absurd imo. The breed standard is there for a reason and that is to give the judges/breeders an ideal to strive for. To have an opinion that a deviation would render a whippet unable to perform it's duty to chase and be agile while doing it, is quite far fetched.

when you have standard neck description of " long, muscular, elegantly arched" it does leave alot to the imagination. How long is to long? how short is to short? what is elegantly arched? how much is to much?............who knows and that is where personal opinion varies and probably why people will never 100% agree on topics like this    . It is fun to discuss though.

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Quite agree with you here 100%

I too have had racing greyhounds and show whippets

and you can have the keenest dog in the world , but if it isnt fast enough it will catch nothing, nor win any races

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You go girls, :rant: nothing like a bit of fire in the bellie to get a good debate. (w00t) (w00t)

As for racing greyhounds the best looking ones are the ones that win because you don't care what colour they are, prick ears or not, light eyes or not just that they finish first, never in greyhound history has an ugly greyhound won a huge race because winners are grinners. Well thats how it was when I raced them. :thumbsup:

Any one that bags out a dog like Fergal has very little respect for the bred whether you race or show, I would put any of my dogs that I have bred to race against so called racing lines, because if you say you race pure whippets then they all should look very much the same as they all started for two pure dogs, if you have bred a greyhound type for speed then you no longer have whippets but mini greyhounds and over 200 meters I'll back a show bred whippet over a mini greyhound any day. :cheers: