British And American Whippets

[anniewhippet]

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I think there should not be a champion’s class in the UK as for until now so many wonderful dogs have become champions in tough competition. The only thing I would have liked to change is the critiques but I do know that it would be impossible to do it the same way as in the FCI countries were each dog gets a written critique. Yes, you do get the reports in Dog World and Our Dogs but sometimes I feel sorry for those that is not high enough placed to be mentioned in the dog papers, they don’t have any clue as for what the judge thought of the dog.
In Sweden since the beginning of 2007 it is more difficult to make up new champions. One of the three CC:s must be won at a sighthound specialty, meaning there is no limit in how many CC:s a dog can win at the kennel club shows before it wins the qualifying CC at a sighthound show. The number of sighthound shows each year are limited to about 15.

Henrik

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That is a shame Henrik about the sighthound shows, the quality in Sweden is high.

As to judges critiques we could not possibly do it here as the entries are huge,and it takes a judges time just getting through and taking notes on your winners. I am sure though if anyone who wanted a judges opinion on dogs that were not in the first 3 the judge would oblige, in strong classes there would be dogs worth a very. nice crit.

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Since coming back into dogs, after being involved in showing & breeding many years ago, I have been very disappointed with the critiques I have seen. [On other peoples dogs, not my own] It now seems generally that a critique is only written for the first two dogs in a class at Ch shows and maybe only for the first placed dog at Open shows. I have many of my old prize cards, and looking back through them, I see that my memory serves me correct, and that critiques were written and published for first three dogs at all Championship, Open, Limited and Sanction shows. Exhibitors seem to get rather a raw deal now I feel, especially for the expensive entry fees. After all, an entry is made to gain the judges opinion.

 

Pauline

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Pauline - the papers are just as much to blame here rather than the judge, fust because they don't appear in the paper doesn't mean they weren't written - often reports are edited rather heavily

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That's interesting Jo. I was also surprised that the Dog papers have altered so little over the years. I think they are very old fashioned now to be honest. I really don't know how there are still two of them when they are virtually the same. Maybe if one did print all the critiques it would get a better circulation. Is one better than the other for publishing critiques? I haven't been back in the dog world long enough to really find out yet.

And can the critiques be got elsewhere then, if they are not published in full?

Cheers

Pauline

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It is very frustrating as a judge, and exhibitor, to not be able to read a 'rounded' report of what that judge liked, and sometimes did not like so much, of at least the two or three placings before them but even at 'slack' times in the show calender these are more often than not edited. As already said before a 'quiet' word after a period of time could get the answers for you or if it fails to appear at all some judges are often happy to email/send a copy, or have sent a copy, if a breed club, to the sec. Or sometimes they could appear on a forum in more detail as a 'locked' thread......

 

[Seraphina]

Sorry Seraphina I can not agree, there is nowhere in the breed standard that says a whippet should be short.

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I did not say that Whippet should be short, there is a difference between good length and too long. Because too long back is not a strong back

 

[patsy]

I think that we are all quite clear now that American dogs can do well in England and English dogs can do well in America.

Having been lucky enough to judge in America I think that the shows and the handling are poles apart. To judge in America you are made to feel very special and very welcome, those hospitality tents are just fab, all those pastries naughty but nice, the tables by the ringside laden with all sorts of things for the whippets and exhibitors plus fruit and sweets, you have no need to arrange a party it is one long party. The dogs were also very happy playing with their toy's forgot to say at the beginning the welcome basket that is delivered to your hotel room full to the brim with goodies, The show officials give you a time to meet up in the morning, and the journey to and from the show the last time I judged was such fun, we even had a sing song, but with the famous MAX on board nothing is surprising.

There is always someone to explain the system of judging, making it very clear and putting you at ease.The superintendent is very scary and you do have to be on the ball with your judging, especially with your timing. I was pulled up over letting a handler come into a class late, I had seen her but here we would let it go, but she made me mark into my judging book, I felt a bit sorry for her.

Then there is the liver in the mouth to bate the dogs horrid, we would keep in our pockets, but they do bait, where as not many of us do. Then there are the glitter girls trainers and all. My judging stopped when when a very attractive young ladies dress split right down the back revealing all she had got, the judging in the Labrador ring next door also stopped. The girl took it all in good part. Now what do you all think, Karen can fill in a lot more than me.

 

[petrezselyem]

A bit back to the athletic abilities:

FCI:

UTILIZATION : Racing dog.
GENERAL APPEARANCE : Balanced combination of muscular power and strength with elegance and grace of outline.  Built for speed and work.  All forms of exaggeration should be avoided.

UK (again):

General AppearanceBalanced combination of muscular power and strength with elegance and grace of outline. Built for speed and work. All forms of exaggeration should be avoided.

All of You who are not interested in function anymore; what about the so called BLUEPRINT? It was so important some days before...hm....own interpretations.... 8)

 

[UKUSA]

A bit back to the athletic abilities:FCI:

UTILIZATION : Racing dog.
GENERAL APPEARANCE : Balanced combination of muscular power and strength with elegance and grace of outline.  Built for speed and work.  All forms of exaggeration should be avoided.

UK (again):

General AppearanceBalanced combination of muscular power and strength with elegance and grace of outline. Built for speed and work. All forms of exaggeration should be avoided.

All of You who are not interested in function anymore; what about the so called BLUEPRINT? It was so important some days before...hm....own interpretations.... 8)

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What are you on about? What do you mean hm? The blueprint or standard are used as guidelines for dogs that are taken into the show ring not for dogs that are only raced or coursed, in fact I don't think that the purely racing or coursing people care whether their dogs fit the requirements for the show ring or not, fair enough. Who amongst us has said that we do not care about function only that it is a side of the breed that we do not for whatever reason, participate in. So what is it you are trying to say? That show dogs cant function? Well I think that there have been numerous examples both here in the U.K and the U.S to blow that out of the water. As for "own interpretations" wellofcourse we do, that is what makes dog showing so interesting. Whatever country you are in dog showing is about opinions, dog racing isnt!

 

[UKUSA]

Furthermore, again, I do not believe ANY of US show people have said that racing or coursing whippets are incorrect and so what that FCI says utilization, racing dog,Bull Terriers are bull baiting dogs but you aren't expected to go and find a bull to bait just to prove that the bull terrier is capable of doing the job he was bred for. As for "appearance of" well again that's open to interpretation and opinions.

 

[patsy]

A bit back to the athletic abilities:FCI:

UTILIZATION : Racing dog.
GENERAL APPEARANCE : Balanced combination of muscular power and strength with elegance and grace of outline.  Built for speed and work.  All forms of exaggeration should be avoided.

UK (again):

General AppearanceBalanced combination of muscular power and strength with elegance and grace of outline. Built for speed and work. All forms of exaggeration should be avoided.

All of You who are not interested in function anymore; what about the so called BLUEPRINT? It was so important some days before...hm....own interpretations.... 8)

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I do not think at any time anyone has said they are not interested in function, I believe that our show whippets are functional, as we all try to breed as near to the standard as possible just because we do not choose to race or course that is up to us, this forum is titled whippet showing.

Two post back I have tried to turn it round back to the differences of English and American dogs, we have covered most things and I thought it would be a good idea to talk about the shows in both countries, and to lighten things up a bit before something gets said that should not be, and spoil what has been a very enjoyable thread. If you would like to join us and tell us about shows in your country we would all love to hear.

 

[quintessence]

How much does it cost to enter shows in the States compared to UK.

Jenny

 

[UKUSA]

How much does it cost to enter shows in the States compared to UK. 
Jenny

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As I have said before Ive been back in the U.K for some time now but when I lived in Texas before I came back I think that I paid between 9 and 11 dollars to enter a dog. Sometimes there would a reduction for the puppy classes and quite often that would be how Decided whether or not I would show a puppy.

Nicky

 

[T Hoare]

How much does it cost to enter shows in the States compared to UK. 
Jenny

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As I have said before Ive been back in the U.K for some time now but when I lived in Texas before I came back I think that I paid between 9 and 11 dollars to enter a dog. Sometimes there would a reduction for the puppy classes and quite often that would be how Decided whether or not I would show a puppy.

Nicky

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Nicky, would that be 5 to 6 pounds?

 

[Scudder]

How much does it cost to enter shows in the States compared to UK. 
Jenny

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It depends. The costs have been going up over the last couple of years. Now entries are routinely $25-$30 for all breed shows. Sometimes there is a break for baby puppy classes (6-9 months and 9-12 months) or the Bred By Exhibitor class, but its only a few dollars.

So I guess with the exchange rate about 13-16 pounds?

Kristen

 

[larruu]

sorry i havent posted before lack of computer (w00t) what starts as a valid point from nicky about american and english show dogs now seems to have become an show verses racing debate yet again -_-   also to the person who put about health problems in show dogs i have one thing to say BALLS OR LACK OF THEM in both spheres but some racing folk continue to breed from monorchids, we could not show our stud dogs without so i think you need to address your own probs before you continue to slate our show breds :rant:

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Whilst it is obvious that a lack of testicles precludes a whippet from the show ring

it does not preclude them from racing/coursing. Furthermore although monorchid/cryptorchid animals cannot be shown, are you saying that stud dogs that sire monorchid/cryptorchids are withdrawn from breeding programmes and do you go even further and say that bitches from litters containing monorchid/cryptorchid males are not bred from either ???

 

[seaspot_run]

Patsy is such a prestige international judge that she is only hired by the better clubs with the bigger budgets, and they do take wonderful care of their judges, but I am afraid she may have a slightly skewed impression of the average dog show going experience here. What she describes is common if you go to a prestige cluster or specialty show environment, but not typical of the average dog show experience.

There are many little all-breed shows which are held in livestock barns...these can be very cold, not at all glamorous, and the hospitality standard for judges and exhibitors is much less. You just show, try to win your point or two, and go home. It's not nearly so social as my impression of the average smaller British championship show. If you don't win something at those shows, you can't really be said to have had much fun, as it's not the sort of place people enjoy hanging around if they aren't required for further judging, so the social life is practically nil.

I've only seen Whippets shown in the UK twice...once at Crufts (1998) and once as a judge (last year's EAWC Open Show). In both instances, I felt there was a higher degree of comaraderie and sportsmanship among the ringside, and I think a lot of that (other than British people tend to be well-mannered) is that the entries are so large that very few people are planning on having a big win, so for most it's a nice day out and a chance to see the other dogs. I think Americans are far more cutthroat. Also, my impression of the sportsmanship and bonhommerie was possibly influenced by that fact that in both venues, alcohol was readily available. This absolutely would not happen at an AKC show. If you go back to the benching area at one of our big remaining benched shows, you will see no hampers and wine set out for friends to share as alcohol is prohibited on the show grounds most places. You may not have a cocktail or a beer at ringside, even if you are a spectator and not showing, or even driving home after the show. We still have that strong puritan streak here. Consequently, some of our folks are more tightly wound. :- "

The party is back in the caravan camping area, generally, or sometimes groups of friends stop off at a nearby watering hole after judging and have a bite and a pint before heading home.

It is expensive to enter dog shows here...UKUSA has been gone a LONG time if that was the price she remembered. It's been over $20 for quite a few years and most of our shows are now in the upper $20 range. There are price breaks for Puppy class and occasionally Bred-By Exhibitor.

Another difference is that few exhibitors here enter more than one class, even if eligible. There's simply no reason to do it. You enter the class where you think your dog has the best chance of being taken seriously for being given the points, and that's your only shot, unless you have a separate competition with a different judge like a Puppy Sweepstakes or a Veteran Sweepstakes.

As for handling, yes the styles are rather different. One thing I noticed when I judged was that the handlers in general weren't staring holes in me waiting for me to point at them. I'm used to being stared down and having handlers try to intimidate me. Rather nice to have a ring of people who just seemed to be concentrating on their dogs instead of on getting in my head and messing with my brain. :unsure: :wacko:

 

[dessie]

As for handling, yes the styles are rather different. One thing I noticed when I judged was that the handlers in general weren't staring holes in me waiting for me to point at them.  I'm used to being stared down and having handlers try to intimidate me.  Rather nice to have a ring of people who just seemed to be concentrating on their dogs instead of on getting in my head and messing with my brain. :unsure:   :wacko:

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Had to chuckle to myself at this ............... Millie will know exactly why! :teehee:

But I can assure you Karen it happens over here as well, there is one lady very famous for it!! :- " But I'm not mentioning any names on an open forum o LOL!

 

[T Hoare]

sorry i havent posted before lack of computer (w00t) what starts as a valid point from nicky about american and english show dogs now seems to have become an show verses racing debate yet again -_-   also to the person who put about health problems in show dogs i have one thing to say BALLS OR LACK OF THEM in both spheres but some racing folk continue to breed from monorchids, we could not show our stud dogs without so i think you need to address your own probs before you continue to slate our show breds :rant:

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Whilst it is obvious that a lack of testicles precludes a whippet from the show ring

it does not preclude them from racing/coursing. Furthermore although monorchid/cryptorchid animals cannot be shown, are you saying that stud dogs that sire monorchid/cryptorchids are withdrawn from breeding programmes and do you go even further and say that bitches from litters containing monorchid/cryptorchid males are not bred from either ???

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Not if they have been castrated for MEDICAL reasons AND have KC approval

 

[UKUSA]

Patsy is such a prestige international judge that she is only hired by the better clubs with the bigger budgets, and they do take wonderful care of their judges, but I am afraid she may have a slightly skewed impression of the average dog show going experience here.  What she describes is common if you go to a prestige cluster or specialty show environment, but not typical of the average dog show experience.
There are many little all-breed shows which are held in livestock barns...these can be very cold, not at all glamorous, and the hospitality standard for judges and exhibitors is much less. You just show, try to win your point or two, and go home. It's not nearly so social as my impression of the average smaller British championship show. If you don't win something at those shows, you can't really be said to have had much fun, as it's not the sort of place people enjoy hanging around if they aren't required for further judging, so the social life is practically nil.

I've only seen Whippets shown in the UK twice...once at Crufts (1998) and once as a judge (last year's EAWC Open Show).  In both instances, I felt there was a higher degree of comaraderie and sportsmanship among the ringside, and I think a lot of that (other than British people tend to be well-mannered) is that the entries are so large that very few people are planning on having a big win, so for most it's a nice day out and a chance to see the other dogs. I think Americans are far more cutthroat.  Also, my impression of the sportsmanship and bonhommerie was possibly influenced by that fact that in both venues, alcohol was readily available.  This absolutely would not happen at an AKC show.  If you go back to the benching area at one of our big remaining benched shows, you will see no hampers and wine set out for friends to share as alcohol is prohibited on the show grounds most places.  You may not have a cocktail or a beer at ringside, even if you are a spectator and not showing, or even driving home after the show.  We still have that strong puritan streak here.  Consequently, some of our folks are more tightly wound. :- "

The party is back in the caravan camping area, generally, or sometimes groups of friends stop off at a nearby watering hole after judging and have a bite and a pint before heading home.

It is expensive to enter dog shows here...UKUSA has been gone a LONG time if that was the price she remembered.  It's been over $20 for quite a few years and most of our shows are now in the upper $20 range. There are price breaks for Puppy class and occasionally Bred-By Exhibitor.

Another difference is that few exhibitors here enter more than one class, even if eligible. There's simply no reason to do it. You enter the class where you think your dog has the best chance of being taken seriously for being given the points, and that's your only shot, unless you have a separate competition with a different judge like a Puppy Sweepstakes or a Veteran Sweepstakes.

As for handling, yes the styles are rather different. One thing I noticed when I judged was that the handlers in general weren't staring holes in me waiting for me to point at them.  I'm used to being stared down and having handlers try to intimidate me.  Rather nice to have a ring of people who just seemed to be concentrating on their dogs instead of on getting in my head and messing with my brain. :unsure:   :wacko:

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Yes it has been a long time Karen and seeing how entry fees have gone up makes me realise JUST how long its been! I have to say that I really did enjoy my time in the States and look back on those days with great fondness. I have to say that without exception I was treated really well by all the dog people that I came into contact with. Terrific memories. Oh and by the way I have been with Patsy on a few of her overseas judging assignments and you are right, she is treated like visiting royalty!

Nicky

 

[patsy]

sorry i havent posted before lack of computer (w00t) what starts as a valid point from nicky about american and english show dogs now seems to have become an show verses racing debate yet again -_-   also to the person who put about health problems in show dogs i have one thing to say BALLS OR LACK OF THEM in both spheres but some racing folk continue to breed from monorchids, we could not show our stud dogs without so i think you need to address your own probs before you continue to slate our show breds :rant:

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Whilst it is obvious that a lack of testicles precludes a whippet from the show ring

it does not preclude them from racing/coursing. Furthermore although monorchid/cryptorchid animals cannot be shown, are you saying that stud dogs that sire monorchid/cryptorchids are withdrawn from breeding programmes and do you go even further and say that bitches from litters containing monorchid/cryptorchid males are not bred from either ???

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Not if they have been castrated for MEDICAL reasons AND have KC approval

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There is no K.C rule that says you can not show a monorchid, although we all know you would not win. You Judge to the degree of the fault.

 

[T Hoare]

sorry i havent posted before lack of computer (w00t) what starts as a valid point from nicky about american and english show dogs now seems to have become an show verses racing debate yet again -_-   also to the person who put about health problems in show dogs i have one thing to say BALLS OR LACK OF THEM in both spheres but some racing folk continue to breed from monorchids, we could not show our stud dogs without so i think you need to address your own probs before you continue to slate our show breds :rant:

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​

Whilst it is obvious that a lack of testicles precludes a whippet from the show ring

it does not preclude them from racing/coursing. Furthermore although monorchid/cryptorchid animals cannot be shown, are you saying that stud dogs that sire monorchid/cryptorchids are withdrawn from breeding programmes and do you go even further and say that bitches from litters containing monorchid/cryptorchid males are not bred from either ???

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Not if they have been castrated for MEDICAL reasons AND have KC approval

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There is no K.C rule that says you can not show a monorchid, although we all know you would not win. You Judge to the degree of the fault.

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Yes you are quite right Patsy as we all know the standard says Male animals should etc not must. :thumbsup:

 

[larruu]

sorry i havent posted before lack of computer (w00t) what starts as a valid point from nicky about american and english show dogs now seems to have become an show verses racing debate yet again -_-   also to the person who put about health problems in show dogs i have one thing to say BALLS OR LACK OF THEM in both spheres but some racing folk continue to breed from monorchids, we could not show our stud dogs without so i think you need to address your own probs before you continue to slate our show breds :rant:

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Whilst it is obvious that a lack of testicles precludes a whippet from the show ring

it does not preclude them from racing/coursing. Furthermore although monorchid/cryptorchid animals cannot be shown, are you saying that stud dogs that sire monorchid/cryptorchids are withdrawn from breeding programmes and do you go even further and say that bitches from litters containing monorchid/cryptorchid males are not bred from either ???

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Not if they have been castrated for MEDICAL reasons AND have KC approval

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Interesting - Have you ever known a castrated dog placed ? and although interesting your reply doesn't actually comment on my point re breeding

 

[patsy]

Patsy is such a prestige international judge that she is only hired by the better clubs with the bigger budgets, and they do take wonderful care of their judges, but I am afraid she may have a slightly skewed impression of the average dog show going experience here.  What she describes is common if you go to a prestige cluster or specialty show environment, but not typical of the average dog show experience.
There are many little all-breed shows which are held in livestock barns...these can be very cold, not at all glamorous, and the hospitality standard for judges and exhibitors is much less. You just show, try to win your point or two, and go home. It's not nearly so social as my impression of the average smaller British championship show. If you don't win something at those shows, you can't really be said to have had much fun, as it's not the sort of place people enjoy hanging around if they aren't required for further judging, so the social life is practically nil.

I've only seen Whippets shown in the UK twice...once at Crufts (1998) and once as a judge (last year's EAWC Open Show).  In both instances, I felt there was a higher degree of comaraderie and sportsmanship among the ringside, and I think a lot of that (other than British people tend to be well-mannered) is that the entries are so large that very few people are planning on having a big win, so for most it's a nice day out and a chance to see the other dogs. I think Americans are far more cutthroat.  Also, my impression of the sportsmanship and bonhommerie was possibly influenced by that fact that in both venues, alcohol was readily available.  This absolutely would not happen at an AKC show.  If you go back to the benching area at one of our big remaining benched shows, you will see no hampers and wine set out for friends to share as alcohol is prohibited on the show grounds most places.  You may not have a cocktail or a beer at ringside, even if you are a spectator and not showing, or even driving home after the show.  We still have that strong puritan streak here.  Consequently, some of our folks are more tightly wound. :- "

The party is back in the caravan camping area, generally, or sometimes groups of friends stop off at a nearby watering hole after judging and have a bite and a pint before heading home.

It is expensive to enter dog shows here...UKUSA has been gone a LONG time if that was the price she remembered.  It's been over $20 for quite a few years and most of our shows are now in the upper $20 range. There are price breaks for Puppy class and occasionally Bred-By Exhibitor.

Another difference is that few exhibitors here enter more than one class, even if eligible. There's simply no reason to do it. You enter the class where you think your dog has the best chance of being taken seriously for being given the points, and that's your only shot, unless you have a separate competition with a different judge like a Puppy Sweepstakes or a Veteran Sweepstakes.

As for handling, yes the styles are rather different. One thing I noticed when I judged was that the handlers in general weren't staring holes in me waiting for me to point at them.  I'm used to being stared down and having handlers try to intimidate me.  Rather nice to have a ring of people who just seemed to be concentrating on their dogs instead of on getting in my head and messing with my brain. :unsure:   :wacko:

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Yes it has been a long time Karen and seeing how entry fees have gone up makes me realise JUST how long its been! I have to say that I really did enjoy my time in the States and look back on those days with great fondness. I have to say that without exception I was treated really well by all the dog people that I came into contact with. Terrific memories. Oh and by the way I have been with Patsy on a few of her overseas judging assignments and you are right, she is treated like visiting royalty!

Nicky

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Thanks for that Karen, sorry that I thought all your shows were run the same, but all are shows are not the same either,you were lucky to have judged the East Anglian whippet club, club shows are friendly, But you yanks do pay your judges 3 dollars a dog, or was I special again.