British And American Whippets

[~JO~]

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Don't forget what the whippet breed was originally created to do- and it wasn't for running the fastest next to other dogs in a straight line or around a circular track. This whole "speed" thing (I haven't seen a slow healthy whippet yet) is being misinterpretted I think. JMHO.

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Yes, you are right, it is bit more complicated, but the standard mentions "build for speed", what ever that means. Many of the top winning Whippets are too heavy and too long to be able to run fast or to be nimble enough for lure coursing. IMHO the beauty and elegance in Whippet comes from his fitness and capability of amazing twist and turns.

If what we are breeding is the anatomically correct Whippet, then they should be beating the supposedly not so correct racing/coursing dogs hands down. Maybe we should just stop and reconsider what is the correct anatomy for a galloping hound.

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As I understand it just from reading and research (not that I was around then!) that it was found that whippets that were slightly longer in loin were much more agile in the coursing field, and it was the Laguna kennel particularly that started breeding them with slightly more length in loin.

 

[Judy]

  Maybe we should just stop and reconsider what is the correct anatomy for a galloping hound.

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Surely all you need to do is look at the top racing/lure/coursing dogs that are continually being tested for their purposes and note the differences between them and show stock who have a different purpose. The only problem with that I think is that psychology and temperament play a big part in making an athlete. Also you will find different types in all disciplines.

 

[playawhile]

I think there should not be a champion’s class in the UK as for until now so many wonderful dogs have become champions in tough competition. The only thing I would have liked to change is the critiques but I do know that it would be impossible to do it the same way as in the FCI countries were each dog gets a written critique. Yes, you do get the reports in Dog World and Our Dogs but sometimes I feel sorry for those that is not high enough placed to be mentioned in the dog papers, they don’t have any clue as for what the judge thought of the dog.

In Sweden since the beginning of 2007 it is more difficult to make up new champions. One of the three CC:s must be won at a sighthound specialty, meaning there is no limit in how many CC:s a dog can win at the kennel club shows before it wins the qualifying CC at a sighthound show. The number of sighthound shows each year are limited to about 15.

Henrik

 

[patsy]

I think there should not be a champion’s class in the UK as for until now so many wonderful dogs have become champions in tough competition. The only thing I would have liked to change is the critiques but I do know that it would be impossible to do it the same way as in the FCI countries were each dog gets a written critique. Yes, you do get the reports in Dog World and Our Dogs but sometimes I feel sorry for those that is not high enough placed to be mentioned in the dog papers, they don’t have any clue as for what the judge thought of the dog.
In Sweden since the beginning of 2007 it is more difficult to make up new champions. One of the three CC:s must be won at a sighthound specialty, meaning there is no limit in how many CC:s a dog can win at the kennel club shows before it wins the qualifying CC at a sighthound show. The number of sighthound shows each year are limited to about 15.

Henrik

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That is a shame Henrik about the sighthound shows, the quality in Sweden is high.

As to judges critiques we could not possibly do it here as the entries are huge,and it takes a judges time just getting through and taking notes on your winners. I am sure though if anyone who wanted a judges opinion on dogs that were not in the first 3 the judge would oblige, in strong classes there would be dogs worth a very. nice crit.

 

[maggie217]

I think there should not be a champion’s class in the UK as for until now so many wonderful dogs have become champions in tough competition. The only thing I would have liked to change is the critiques but I do know that it would be impossible to do it the same way as in the FCI countries were each dog gets a written critique. Yes, you do get the reports in Dog World and Our Dogs but sometimes I feel sorry for those that is not high enough placed to be mentioned in the dog papers, they don’t have any clue as for what the judge thought of the dog.
In Sweden since the beginning of 2007 it is more difficult to make up new champions. One of the three CC:s must be won at a sighthound specialty, meaning there is no limit in how many CC:s a dog can win at the kennel club shows before it wins the qualifying CC at a sighthound show. The number of sighthound shows each year are limited to about 15.

Henrik

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That is a shame Henrik about the sighthound shows, the quality in Sweden is high.

As to judges critiques we could not possibly do it here as the entries are huge,and it takes a judges time just getting through and taking notes on your winners. I am sure though if anyone who wanted a judges opinion on dogs that were not in the first 3 the judge would oblige, in strong classes there would be dogs worth a very. nice crit.

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Since coming back into dogs, after being involved in showing & breeding many years ago, I have been very disappointed with the critiques I have seen. [On other peoples dogs, not my own] It now seems generally that a critique is only written for the first two dogs in a class at Ch shows and maybe only for the first placed dog at Open shows. I have many of my old prize cards, and looking back through them, I see that my memory serves me correct, and that critiques were written and published for first three dogs at all Championship, Open, Limited and Sanction shows. Exhibitors seem to get rather a raw deal now I feel, especially for the expensive entry fees. After all, an entry is made to gain the judges opinion.

 

Pauline

 

[kris]

I am sorry Seraphina I do not agree at all, I breed whippets for the show ring, I am not interested in racing

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I thought that dogs bred for show ring are bred according to The Breed Standard, which says;

General appearance and characteristics Balanced combination of muscular power and strength with elegance and grace of outline. Built for speed and work. All forms of exaggeration should be avoided.

Nobody is suggesting that the show dogs should have to win races. They should be able to run in reasonable time. If they are built such a way that they cannot, then we somehow lost the plot.

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Don't forget what the whippet breed was originally created to do- and it wasn't for running the fastest next to other dogs in a straight line or around a circular track. This whole "speed" thing (I haven't seen a slow healthy whippet yet) is being misinterpretted I think. JMHO.

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This is true.

I believe the original use was as a poacher's dog, small enough to carry under the cloak and throw over His Lordship's fence, and then slightly later, as a dog where wagers were placed how many rabbits could be slaughtered in a given amount of time in an enclosure (which is totally counter to our modern-day sensibilities on what constitutes ethical sport).

All our modern pursuits are pretty artificial, with the exception of open field coursing of live game.

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do you mean like when they used to put a terrier in a pit or other enclosure and wage bets on how long it would take to kill a certain amount of rats?

 

[anniewhippet]

come back to this abit late but great thread, keep it going please :thumbsup:

My answer to the question of a Champions class has got to be NO.

I nominate Cathie, with Dolly for back up, to tell Ronnie and I would like to state here & now I do not do fancy sparkly outfits, so if we swap systems I will leave that to Rachel (but don't tell her). :- "

 

[anniewhippet]

Sorry Seraphina I can not agree, there is nowhere in the breed standard that says a whippet should be short.  famous causing dogs of the past Susan Bairds Ch. Sound Barrier also held his coursing title, many of Mary Lowes including Chs Ruff, Wiverton and many more, these were no way short dogs,and Sound Barrier was a top coursing sire, in fact all these dogs produced top winners in both fields.In my book Gay Robertson very kindly did the racing and coursing chapters as this is not my field at all. There is a picture of WCR Ch Striker again in no way a short dog he was very light boned 20inches but he only weighed in at 23lbs so a dog of that size and weight could not possibly win in the show ring.

  Now going back to America Mary Lowe exported out of her first litter before Mary had a prefix a dog by Robmaywin Stargazer of Allways x Willow of Allwaysa solid red. Registered Red Gleam of Test In the early days she also exported Nimrodel Pied Piper a golden fawn with heavy white trim sired by the lovely Ch Danegeld Pipers Tune X Garden Party of Allways litter sister to Ch Playmate, these went to the West coast to Alec McKenzies sister and Mary said they were both my up, but they were also wanted for their working ability. She also told me that Annette Skelley sent to the stated Ringmore Finisterre, don't know if he was by the lovely Ch. Bardolf, perhaps Vanna could shed some light.

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Quite agree, a galloping hound/animal should not be 'short' nor should it lack heart room/depth.

:thumbsup: for the 'history' Patsy, looking through pictures from old books bears out what you have said.

 

[starswift]

sorry i havent posted before lack of computer (w00t) what starts as a valid point from nicky about american and english show dogs now seems to have become an show verses racing debate yet again -_- also to the person who put about health problems in show dogs i have one thing to say BALLS OR LACK OF THEM in both spheres but some racing folk continue to breed from monorchids, we could not show our stud dogs without so i think you need to address your own probs before you continue to slate our show breds :rant:

 

[Vanna]

She also told me that Annette Skelley sent to the stated Ringmore Finisterre, don't know if he was by the lovely Ch. Bardolf, perhaps Vanna could shed some light.

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I'm fairly certain that Finisterre wasn't by Bardolph. I think he was by Ch Bouquet and they were both out of Tweseldown Mimosa. I'll check with Mum and let you know.

Edited to add that I say NO to a Champions Class too. I agree it is harder to make up a Champion in this country than almost anywhere else - not that I'm saying it's EASY anywhere! With the entries we get it can be difficult to get even a placing in Limit or Open sometimes, especially in the bitch classes where there are so many lovely girls around. Personally I love the feeling when you get a placing with your lovely whippet in Open and know that on that day, that judge thought yours was better than the 2 Champions behind you!

 

[Juley]

Sorry Seraphina I can not agree, there is nowhere in the breed standard that says a whippet should be short.  famous causing dogs of the past Susan Bairds Ch. Sound Barrier also held his coursing title, many of Mary Lowes including Chs Ruff, Wiverton and many more, these were no way short dogs,and Sound Barrier was a top coursing sire, in fact all these dogs produced top winners in both fields.In my book Gay Robertson very kindly did the racing and coursing chapters as this is not my field at all. There is a picture of WCR Ch Striker again in no way a short dog he was very light boned 20inches but he only weighed in at 23lbs so a dog of that size and weight could not possibly win in the show ring.

  Now going back to America Mary Lowe exported out of her first litter before Mary had a prefix a dog by Robmaywin Stargazer of Allways x Willow of Allwaysa solid red. Registered Red Gleam of Test In the early days she also exported Nimrodel Pied Piper a golden fawn with heavy white trim sired by the lovely Ch Danegeld Pipers Tune X Garden Party of Allways litter sister to Ch Playmate, these went to the West coast to Alec McKenzies sister and Mary said they were both my up, but they were also wanted for their working ability. She also told me that Annette Skelley sent to the stated Ringmore Finisterre, don't know if he was by the lovely Ch. Bardolf, perhaps Vanna could shed some light.

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Quite agree, a galloping hound/animal should not be 'short' nor should it lack heart room/depth.

:thumbsup: for the 'history' Patsy, looking through pictures from old books bears out what you have said.

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I have been given a wonderful gift of some of the old books, I quite agree, the dogs are certainly not short in the loin, quite a few of them are from lines that were involved in other aspects of sport and not just showing.

 

[Vanna]

OK. I got it wrong!! Sorry guys.

Finisterre was a full brother to Bardolph, but a repeat mating. Both were by Ch Bellavista Barry and out of Tweseldown Mimosa, but Bardolph was born in 1957 and Finisterre in 1960.

 

[~JO~]

I think there should not be a champion’s class in the UK as for until now so many wonderful dogs have become champions in tough competition. The only thing I would have liked to change is the critiques but I do know that it would be impossible to do it the same way as in the FCI countries were each dog gets a written critique. Yes, you do get the reports in Dog World and Our Dogs but sometimes I feel sorry for those that is not high enough placed to be mentioned in the dog papers, they don’t have any clue as for what the judge thought of the dog.
In Sweden since the beginning of 2007 it is more difficult to make up new champions. One of the three CC:s must be won at a sighthound specialty, meaning there is no limit in how many CC:s a dog can win at the kennel club shows before it wins the qualifying CC at a sighthound show. The number of sighthound shows each year are limited to about 15.

Henrik

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That is a shame Henrik about the sighthound shows, the quality in Sweden is high.

As to judges critiques we could not possibly do it here as the entries are huge,and it takes a judges time just getting through and taking notes on your winners. I am sure though if anyone who wanted a judges opinion on dogs that were not in the first 3 the judge would oblige, in strong classes there would be dogs worth a very. nice crit.

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Since coming back into dogs, after being involved in showing & breeding many years ago, I have been very disappointed with the critiques I have seen. [On other peoples dogs, not my own] It now seems generally that a critique is only written for the first two dogs in a class at Ch shows and maybe only for the first placed dog at Open shows. I have many of my old prize cards, and looking back through them, I see that my memory serves me correct, and that critiques were written and published for first three dogs at all Championship, Open, Limited and Sanction shows. Exhibitors seem to get rather a raw deal now I feel, especially for the expensive entry fees. After all, an entry is made to gain the judges opinion.

 

Pauline

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Pauline - the papers are just as much to blame here rather than the judge, fust because they don't appear in the paper doesn't mean they weren't written - often reports are edited rather heavily

 

[maggie217]

I think there should not be a champion’s class in the UK as for until now so many wonderful dogs have become champions in tough competition. The only thing I would have liked to change is the critiques but I do know that it would be impossible to do it the same way as in the FCI countries were each dog gets a written critique. Yes, you do get the reports in Dog World and Our Dogs but sometimes I feel sorry for those that is not high enough placed to be mentioned in the dog papers, they don’t have any clue as for what the judge thought of the dog.
In Sweden since the beginning of 2007 it is more difficult to make up new champions. One of the three CC:s must be won at a sighthound specialty, meaning there is no limit in how many CC:s a dog can win at the kennel club shows before it wins the qualifying CC at a sighthound show. The number of sighthound shows each year are limited to about 15.

Henrik

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​

That is a shame Henrik about the sighthound shows, the quality in Sweden is high.

As to judges critiques we could not possibly do it here as the entries are huge,and it takes a judges time just getting through and taking notes on your winners. I am sure though if anyone who wanted a judges opinion on dogs that were not in the first 3 the judge would oblige, in strong classes there would be dogs worth a very. nice crit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Since coming back into dogs, after being involved in showing & breeding many years ago, I have been very disappointed with the critiques I have seen. [On other peoples dogs, not my own] It now seems generally that a critique is only written for the first two dogs in a class at Ch shows and maybe only for the first placed dog at Open shows. I have many of my old prize cards, and looking back through them, I see that my memory serves me correct, and that critiques were written and published for first three dogs at all Championship, Open, Limited and Sanction shows. Exhibitors seem to get rather a raw deal now I feel, especially for the expensive entry fees. After all, an entry is made to gain the judges opinion.

 

Pauline

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Pauline - the papers are just as much to blame here rather than the judge, fust because they don't appear in the paper doesn't mean they weren't written - often reports are edited rather heavily

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That's interesting Jo. I was also surprised that the Dog papers have altered so little over the years. I think they are very old fashioned now to be honest. I really don't know how there are still two of them when they are virtually the same. Maybe if one did print all the critiques it would get a better circulation. Is one better than the other for publishing critiques? I haven't been back in the dog world long enough to really find out yet.

And can the critiques be got elsewhere then, if they are not published in full?

Cheers

Pauline

 

[playawhile]

I think there should not be a champion’s class in the UK as for until now so many wonderful dogs have become champions in tough competition. The only thing I would have liked to change is the critiques but I do know that it would be impossible to do it the same way as in the FCI countries were each dog gets a written critique. Yes, you do get the reports in Dog World and Our Dogs but sometimes I feel sorry for those that is not high enough placed to be mentioned in the dog papers, they don’t have any clue as for what the judge thought of the dog.
In Sweden since the beginning of 2007 it is more difficult to make up new champions. One of the three CC:s must be won at a sighthound specialty, meaning there is no limit in how many CC:s a dog can win at the kennel club shows before it wins the qualifying CC at a sighthound show. The number of sighthound shows each year are limited to about 15.

Henrik

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That is a shame Henrik about the sighthound shows, the quality in Sweden is high.

As to judges critiques we could not possibly do it here as the entries are huge,and it takes a judges time just getting through and taking notes on your winners. I am sure though if anyone who wanted a judges opinion on dogs that were not in the first 3 the judge would oblige, in strong classes there would be dogs worth a very. nice crit.

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The idiotic thing is that the same judge can have two appointments two weekends running one being at the Kennel Club and the other the Sighthound Club and although this judge is qualified to hand out CC:s, one of the shows is worth so much more even though the same judge is doing the job..... No logic…. :angry: :angry:

 

[playawhile]

Talking about the reports from English shows I must say it would be more refreshing if the judges also in more extent also wrote more about what they did not like in the dogs. I know that the tradition in the UK is to talk about the positive traits of the dogs but usually it is the faults that cause a dog to stand further down the line and personally I like to know why my dog was not in the liking of the judge….

Henrik

 

[UKUSA]

sorry i havent posted before lack of computer (w00t) what starts as a valid point from nicky about american and english show dogs now seems to have become an show verses racing debate yet again -_-   also to the person who put about health problems in show dogs i have one thing to say BALLS OR LACK OF THEM in both spheres but some racing folk continue to breed from monorchids, we could not show our stud dogs without so i think you need to address your own probs before you continue to slate our show breds :rant:

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Thank-you Serena, thats how it seems to me as well, I havent yet seen one show person have a go at racing whippets or their owners but it does nt seem to stop the racing people have a pop at the show people. This board is ABOUT whippet showing, that is what we as a group choose to do for the most part with our Whippets and as far as Im aware, show people dont go onto the racing boards and have apop at the racing people. I also keep reading that show people look down on the racers well Ive never read or heard that. Again as for the health problems, again tellus what you mean.

Nicky

 

[dragonfly]

[SIZE=14pt]Yes, please tell us what you mean about the health matters that you have heard about. I am sure no breeder of sense thinks that the whippet is devoid of inherited conditions or predispositions to diseases. If it were then it would be a super-breed. [/SIZE]

 

This would be interesting to hear. The post was very vague indeed.

When hearing from VERY well know Whippet showers, breeders etc .... I know (as long as I've been told the truth) that there are lines out there that are controlled by medication that are bred on from ......Of course there are sound lines out there .....and some great lines have closed due to health problems ......I was just trying to say that as little as the show people think of our racing breds ....the breeding stock have to be healthy to do what is asked of them ....just like the lure coursers etc ....

[SIZE=14pt]So come on do tell us what these whippets have that is medicated for while they are being bred from![/SIZE]

 

Cathie

 

PS. I feel I should congratulate the racing folk [SIZE=8pt](who are posting on this thread) for keeping their dogs SO very healthy, I am surprised that the veterinary professors of faculties specialising in inherited disease are not beating a path to their doors, to discover how a population subject to close breeding has maintained such fantastic health in spite of the likely increase in deleterious homozygous recessive traits.[/SIZE]

edited to say that I point my comments only at those breeders who are on here stating that their racing lines are totally healthy, not generally at all race breeders.

 

[patsy]

Talking about the reports from English shows I must say it would be more refreshing if the judges also in more extent also wrote more about what they did not like in the dogs. I know that the tradition in the UK is to talk about the positive traits of the dogs but usually it is the faults that cause a dog to stand further down the line and personally I like to know why my dog was not in the liking of the judge….
Henrik

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Henrik, it is very difficult to do a critique that is going to be read by the whole world when written in the dog press, you do try to explain why one beat two and two beat three but to be hard on a dog in the press is not really on, lets face it they all have faults, we in England judge on virtues, In FCI countries the critique is private between judge and exhibitor. I remember a FCI judge commenting on the mouth of a dog and putting it in the press that it was not quite right, when this dog had a perfecly good mouth.

 

[UKUSA]

[SIZE=14pt]Yes, please tell us what you mean about the health matters that you have heard about. I am sure no breeder of sense thinks that the whippet is devoid of inherited conditions or predispositions to diseases. If it were then it would be a super-breed. [/SIZE] 

This would be interesting to hear. The post was very vague indeed.

When hearing from VERY well know Whippet showers, breeders etc .... I know (as long as I've been told the truth) that there are lines out there that are controlled by medication that are bred on from ......Of course there are sound lines out there .....and some great lines have closed due to health problems ......I was just trying to say that as little as the show people think of our racing breds ....the breeding stock have to be healthy to do what is asked of them ....just like the lure coursers etc ....

[SIZE=14pt]So come on do tell us what these whippets have that is medicated for while they are being bred from![/SIZE]

 

Cathie

 

PS. I feel I should congratulate the racing folk [SIZE=8pt](who are posting on this thread) for keeping their dogs SO very healthy, I am surprised that the veterinary professors of faculties specialising in inherited disease are not beating a path to their doors, to discover how a population subject to close breeding has maintained such fantastic health in spite of the likely increase in deleterious homozygous recessive traits.[/SIZE]

edited to say that I point my comments only at those breeders who are on here stating that their racing lines are totally healthy, not generally at all race breeders. 

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Cathie,

Ive just had an e.mail from Patsy, she wants to know if those long words are diseases? Only shes got her dictionary out and is struggling

Nicky