British And American Whippets

[UKUSA]

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I agree Patsy, I dont see that that has ever been a problem.

Nicky

 

[seaspot_run]

There is no height/weight DQ for lure coursing here but you are correct as regards the racing.  Although the top weight was grudgingly increased to 32lbs in recent years, that excluded my 20" coursing males who had far too much bone and substance to weigh in without the starving that some racing people regard as normal.
My personal view, which is deeply unpopular with racing people, is that the weight classes used for racing have been entirely detrimental to the breed.  Historically, there were always some kind of limits for the same reason as you brought them in in the US but they were at one stage as high as 36lbs.  Nowadays, I suspect that some UK show dogs would have trouble getting below that.

Coursing is currently banned but I have to say while it was never easy to breed a male with enough bone to compete in the ring that would measure in at 20", for some reason I don't understand, it has become even more difficult lately.  I probably had some in my NWA entry earlier this month but they didn't strike me as dogs capable of walking for several hours and galloping over heavy plough at the speed of a hare.

Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

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I am basing my post on what I was told on the Lure coursing portion of K9.

To Whit....

Our club allows whippets up to 21 inches in height. This has been a relatively recent change as previously 20 inches was the cut off.

Maybe it is individual as to club? That's very different from here. We have two bodies who oversee Lure coursing, and both recognize the same disqualifications from competition. Clubs, to be sanctioned to hold events that count for points and titles, must agree to operate under a consistent set of rules.

 

[Scudder]

I do the the tide is turning with regard to height here in the US. Karen (seaspotrun) and I are currently campaigning a very moderate male by US standards - about 20.5" at the shoulders. He seems to be taken as a breath of fresh air by the judges and fancy. I have had people comment on his height who had not met him in person - but I assure you, he's not big. His handler is short and she always has his pictures taken on the podium. (w00t)

Inga, our half-Bluestreak girl has been well accepted and she is quite small in the ring against her competition. Although, I will admit she was faulted on her eye color a couple weekends ago. It was definitely the deciding factor in the judges line-up.

A good dog is a good dog and quality will show through.

Kristen

 

[TC]

There is no height/weight DQ for lure coursing here but you are correct as regards the racing.  Although the top weight was grudgingly increased to 32lbs in recent years, that excluded my 20" coursing males who had far too much bone and substance to weigh in without the starving that some racing people regard as normal.

My personal view, which is deeply unpopular with racing people, is that the weight classes used for racing have been entirely detrimental to the breed.   Historically, there were always some kind of limits for the same reason as you brought them in in the US but they were at one stage as high as 36lbs.   Nowadays, I suspect that some UK show dogs would have trouble getting below that.

Coursing is currently banned but I have to say while it was never easy to breed a male with enough bone to compete in the ring that would measure in at 20", for some reason I don't understand, it has become even more difficult lately.  I probably had some in my NWA entry earlier this month but they didn't strike me as dogs capable of walking for several hours and galloping over heavy plough at the speed of a hare.

Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

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I am basing my post on what I was told on the Lure coursing portion of K9.

To Whit....

Our club allows whippets up to 21 inches in height. This has been a relatively recent change as previously 20 inches was the cut off.

Maybe it is individual as to club? That's very different from here. We have two bodies who oversee Lure coursing, and both recognize the same disqualifications from competition. Clubs, to be sanctioned to hold events that count for points and titles, must agree to operate under a consistent set of rules.

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You are both correct, as there are lure coursing clubs that have height limits, and also those that don't.

TCx

 

[seaspot_run]

You are both correct, as there are lure coursing clubs that have height limits, and also those that don't.
TCx

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Well, I definitely learned something!! Thanks TC!

I remember when they were talking about taking the Witching Hour back to the UK, I said I hoped she stayed under 20" as she would need to be that height or less to lure course (my understanding and theirs).

 

[seaspot_run]

I do the the tide is turning with regard to height here in the US. Karen (seaspotrun) and I are currently campaigning a very moderate male by US standards - about 20.5" at the shoulders. He seems to be taken as a breath of fresh air by the judges and fancy. I have had people comment on his height who had not met him in person - but I assure you, he's not big. His handler is short and she always has his pictures taken on the podium.  (w00t) ....

Kristen

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Just don't tell them about Striker and Jarod....

 

[dolly]

harry is under 20" and certainly has enough bone, and his caple of galloping over heavy plough too

 

[T Hoare]

harry is under 20" and certainly has enough bone, and his caple of galloping over heavy plough too

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I agree :thumbsup:

 

[moonlake]

There is no height/weight DQ for lure coursing here but you are correct as regards the racing.  Although the top weight was grudgingly increased to 32lbs in recent years, that excluded my 20" coursing males who had far too much bone and substance to weigh in without the starving that some racing people regard as normal.

My personal view, which is deeply unpopular with racing people, is that the weight classes used for racing have been entirely detrimental to the breed.  Historically, there were always some kind of limits for the same reason as you brought them in in the US but they were at one stage as high as 36lbs.  Nowadays, I suspect that some UK show dogs would have trouble getting below that.

Coursing is currently banned but I have to say while it was never easy to breed a male with enough bone to compete in the ring that would measure in at 20", for some reason I don't understand, it has become even more difficult lately.  I probably had some in my NWA entry earlier this month but they didn't strike me as dogs capable of walking for several hours and galloping over heavy plough at the speed of a hare.

Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I am basing my post on what I was told on the Lure coursing portion of K9.

To Whit....

Our club allows whippets up to 21 inches in height. This has been a relatively recent change as previously 20 inches was the cut off.

Maybe it is individual as to club? That's very different from here. We have two bodies who oversee Lure coursing, and both recognize the same disqualifications from competition. Clubs, to be sanctioned to hold events that count for points and titles, must agree to operate under a consistent set of rules.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

You are both correct, as there are lure coursing clubs that have height limits, and also those that don't.

TCx

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

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Sorry not to have picked upon this sooner but I have only just warmed up after Bath (FYI, Karen, a show where the weather was atrocious). At the risk of being OT, I would add that lure coursing is not a recognised sport here and there is no overall governing body. I run my dogs at the British Sighthound Field Association meetings which are within an hour of my house and not really competitive in that you can choose your opponent, i.e. run your dogs against each other. It is sad that this, and FCI lure coursing has chosen to adopt the American system of judging which is subjective, an average of two judges' opinions which are likely to be divergent,given that they come from different breeds and not based on performance apparent to spectators. Just like show judging 8)

Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

 

[TC]

Coursing is currently banned but I have to say while it was never easy to breed a male with enough bone to compete in the ring that would measure in at 20", for some reason I don't understand, it has become even more difficult lately.  I probably had some in my NWA entry earlier this month but they didn't strike me as dogs capable of walking for several hours and galloping over heavy plough at the speed of a hare.
Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

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Well there was at least one there (w00t) 8) :- "

TCx

 

[seaspot_run]

Gay, how would you propose to judge lure coursing other than subjectively?

 

[TC]

Gay, how would you propose to judge lure coursing other than subjectively?

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A very good question.

Lure coursing in this coutry can be judged/run different ways. As Gay has said, the BSFA allow all competitors to chose their running partners on the day. Many people have opinions/reasonings on what this can mean. Here are two that I know of...

A. The owners of each dog can decide to run their whippet with one that they think will provide a fair and safe course that i.e. an older whippet running with a younger one that is maybe not that fast. It can be very disheartening for a dog to be 20 or so yards behind, not all whippets have the competitve edge to push themselves further and may give up. Some can easily become unsighted if the lure is being run to keep ahead of the lead dog who happens to be 50 foot in front... They are running their dogs for fun and the whippet's enjoyment so it is more about making the pairing as 'matched' as possible.

B. Owners can select to run their whippet against another that will make theirs look far superior.

With this method, two judges provide a score for a number of criteria and then as previously stated, this is given as an average. They run twice and the highest score they achieve that day is awarded and then graded in their class (based on age) A running total of points is kept for each dog to work towards receiving the title Lure Courser of Merit.

Other clubs chose to run stakes. There is a draw to decide who is paired with who, and the competition is run as a knock out, so your dog could run up to 5 times. If a dog is withdrawn, you get a 'bye' and go through to the next round, but must run the course.

There is a single judge who determines which dog has (in their opinion) completed the course in a superior manner based on similar criteria to the BSFA judges, although in my opinion it seems to basically be the dog who has run as true to the lure as possible and generally gets to the lure first.

Which way is best? I honestly don't know. There are pros and cons for both systems as far as I'm concerned and I'm really not sure which one I prefer.

Many people will say that the first system allows for manipulation when chosing running partners.

Many will say that the judging in the stake system allows a judge to give the course to an unworthy winner for a variety of reasons. The 'byes' can also be a bone of contention if a dog gets thorough multiple rounds because it's partners are withdrawn.

It is similar to showing in that we are talking about people's opinions giving results, where as we all know that racing is so much more cut and dried in that it's first over the line wins. Having line judged on numerous occasions though, that can be a close call sometimes too :blink:

A couple of months ago I entered Ruso in a lure coursing competition at a big county fair. It was done as a draw for partners (all different breeds), and a knock out. The dogs were required to follow the lure through 'gates' and he proceded to knock out all his opponents and never missed a gate. In the final he ran against a dog that didn't go through one gate and beat him to the lure by a head even though he had followed the lure true when the other one had cut all the corners. He lost. Go figure :wacko:

At the end of the day, I don't think you will find a system that will keep all of the people happy all of the time, but I'd love to hear if anyone has any suggestions...

TCx

 

[seaspot_run]

Our system has stood the test of time where artificial lure coursing is concerned, but it is certainly subjective.

I guess it would be off-topic for this thread to discuss it further, though.

I think many of the most popular competitions have a degree of subjectivity to them. Look at figure skating, for example. Draws huge ratings, then everyone argues over whether or not a's successful quad should have been worth more than b's cleaner skate and higher degree of artistry.

 

[UKUSA]

Returning to the size and measuring debate. Who amongst us remembers Gladys Sage who when judging would sometimes have the wicket ,set to the height in either dogs or bitches just stood on the table, I never saw her actually measure a dog. When I showed my dogs in the U.S my AM CH Fairway Riptide was measured in the ring but measured in.

On the lure coursing front, I lure coursed my dogs in California and Texas and really enjoyed it and the dogs loved it.

Nicky

 

[dessie]

Surely breeds are only measured over here if there is more than one size. i.e. Poodles, Spitz. I know Parson Jacks used to be measured but it was only when they were first recognised as a breed and classified at shows. Most breed standards have an ideal height/weight but the exhibitors don't keep banging on about size like Whippet people do. There is more to a dog than just it's height!!

 

[patsy]

Surely breeds are only measured over here if there is more than one size. i.e. Poodles, Spitz.  I know  Parson Jacks used to be measured but it was only when they were first recognised as a breed and classified at shows.  Most breed standards have an ideal height/weight but the exhibitors don't keep banging on about size like Whippet people do.  There is more to a dog than just it's height!!

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Yes I agree with you Caroline, the word ideal says it all.

In a perfect world we would all be happy with bitches of 19 and dogs of 20.

 

[Ms Molly]

Well said Patsy. Yes indeedy--- we all want a whippet of the correct size. But by golly it is hard enough breeding good ones, let alone get one of perfect size.

We want it all!!! But alas, sometimes we have to compromise.

 

[posh totty]

at what point though does the line get crossed with heights? surely we sould e trying to keep the size correct too along with other faults? :thumbsup:

 

[Ms Molly]

For my own personnel preference ideally dogs no taller than 21, and bitches under 20 inches.

However, we do not want to then settle for mediocre when striving for height perfection either.

 

[posh totty]

For my own personnel preference ideally dogs no taller than 21, and bitches under 20 inches.However, we do not want to then settle for mediocre when striving for height perfection either.

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certainly not but i still feel it is a consideration needed in any well thought out breeding program , another of my passions is feet (w00t) , i think we all have things that get to us that little bit more , but seeing the heights rise up so much over the last 25 years i do think we need to start thinking about size a little more :thumbsup: