British And American Whippets

[Seraphina]

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[aslan]

  However hock as a such is actually the bit from stifle (the knee) to the hock joint  (the heel).

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Ok - this is where I come right out and say you're wrong Lida.

The area you talk about is marked in green on the pic. This is definitely NOT the hock. This is the second thigh. If you want this part "close to the ground" all our whippets would be extremely over-angulated in the rear.

The hock joint is at the yellow dot and the hock itself (or the rear pastern) is marked in pink.

 

[Seraphina]

  However hock as a such is actually the bit from stifle (the knee) to the hock joint  (the heel).

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Ok - this is where I come right out and say you're wrong Lida.

The area you talk about is marked in green on the pic. This is definitely NOT the hock. This is the second thigh.

The hock joint is at the yellow dot and the hock itself (or the rear pastern) is marked in pink.

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Yes it the joint equivalent to our heel, but if you go to butcher and ask for hock you get the bit from the knee down, not the trotter, which is the bit from the hock joint down.

But that is not he point, how can you have "hock joint well let down" ? Why not say metatarsus relatively short

 

[aslan]

I can't comment on the butchers - because I've never bought "hocks" but seeing as I'm working at a butcher's now I will ask tomorrow.

The diagram attached is of the front leg comparison between dog and horse, but horse and cow would be similar if not identical I imagine, and the hind legs would work in the same fashion.

Every skeletal diagram I have of the dog, names the hock as I have. And I doubt very much that skeletal diagrams issued to judges by the ANKC would name the skeleton incorrectly.

Hocks well let down is a horsey term - that's how it became used in our standards. It is asking for something in relation to something else. It is asking for shorter bones in the hock compared with longer tibia and fibula. It actually means it wants the HOCK JOINT not far away from the ground, which in turn creates short hocks, and the whole hock is "well let down" (as compared to the rest of the leg) - if they are not "well let down" they are "long hocked" or "high on the hock".

 

[parnew]

  However hock as a such is actually the bit from stifle (the knee) to the hock joint  (the heel).

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Ok - this is where I come right out and say you're wrong Lida.

The area you talk about is marked in green on the pic. This is definitely NOT the hock. This is the second thigh.

The hock joint is at the yellow dot and the hock itself (or the rear pastern) is marked in pink.

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​

Yes it the joint equivalent to our heel, but if you go to butcher and ask for hock you get the bit from the knee down, not the trotter, which is the bit from the hock joint down.

But that is not he point, how can you have "hock joint well let down" ? Why not say metatarsus relatively short

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No... this is the shank Lida not the hock. As Lana pointed out the hock is the joint. If you wish to talk in butcher terms you are on the wrong forum as we don't eat our whippets (w00t) . Lana has a good grounding in horses as I do and some of the terms you refer to are wrong.

Will explain later......

 

[Seraphina]

No... this is the shank Lida not the hock. As Lana pointed out the hock is the joint. If you wish to talk in butcher terms you are on the wrong forum as we don't eat our whippets (w00t) ..

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:b that is what you get from vegetarian with English as a second language :lol:

Lana has a good grounding in horses as I do and some of the terms you refer to are wrong.  Will explain later.....

Please do I do hope to learn something from this discussion

 

[maggie217]

Hocks well let down is a horsey term - that's how it became used in our standards.  It is asking for something in relation to something else.  It is asking for shorter bones in the hock compared with longer tibia and fibula.  It actually means it wants the  HOCK JOINT not far away from the ground, which in turn creates short hocks, and the whole hock is "well let down" (as compared to the rest of the leg) - if they are not "well let down" they are "long hocked" or "high on the hock".

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This is exactly as I have always understood the term in the world of horses. Although a novice regarding the anatomy of dogs I did expect the term 'hocks well let down' to mean the same regarding dogs i.e. that the hock joint or point of hock is low to the ground ie the length of the metatarsus relatively short compared to the total length of the leg.

As Seraphina says why not say that the "metatarsus is relatively short". That probably would be a better, less ambiguous, way of describing it but the term 'well let down hocks' was probably used originally because most people in those day were familar with the term from the world of horses and would interpret it in the same way.

Pauline

 

[patsy]

For me the dark brindle bitch is far too long in her second thigh, but her hocks are well let down, so that is my theorie out of the window that with a correct second thigh the hocks are usually well let down. When you breed to exagerate the back end you will find that the second thigh becomes long and weak.

 

[aslan]

if you go to butcher and ask for hock you get the bit from the knee down, not the trotter, which is the bit from the hock joint down. 

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Right-e-o! Spoke to my butcher bosses this avo and this is what they told me and showed me as they were boning pigs at the time.

When you ask for "hock" on a pig you actually get the forearm (from the forequarter). The actual hock joint on the hindquarter forms part of the "leg of ham" so it doesn't get sold separately.

'well let down hocks' was probably used originally because most people in those day were familar with the term from the world of horses and would interpret it in the same way.Pauline

Correct!

 

[UKUSA]

Couldnt agree more Patsy( by the way there is no inbreeding that Im aware of in Wuthering Heights) and also thank-you for using plain English. For me that bitch is wrong in her back-end whatever standard you use because as Patsy says, exagerated second thigh. Remember , moderation or free from exageration.

Nicky

 

[Gill Andrew]

This thread is brilliant and thank you all for contributing to it in such an informative way

Gill

 

[Natalia]

For me the dark brindle bitch is far too long in her second thigh, but her hocks are well let down, so that is my theorie out of the window that with a correct second thigh the hocks are usually well let down. When you breed to exagerate the back end you will find that the second thigh becomes long and weak.

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This bitch's angulation in back is too extreme even for me (I like dogs with plenty of angles).

When talking about the lenght of second thigh - what are, in your opinion, the ideal proportions of the length of thigh to the length od second thigh?

And the ideal angle in knee joint?

 

[seaspot_run]

:geek: [SIZE=14pt]Geek Alert[/SIZE] :geek:

I've measured a lot of Whippet photos and the ratio that goes along with a hock appearing "well let down" (or as some say "low") is for the hock height to be right around 1/3 the height of the dog at the top of the hip.

That ratio probably holds true for the vast majority of show Whippets. I've not measured many racing ones, but should.

 

[UKUSA]

if you go to butcher and ask for hock you get the bit from the knee down, not the trotter, which is the bit from the hock joint down. 

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Right-e-o! Spoke to my butcher bosses this avo and this is what they told me and showed me as they were boning pigs at the time.

When you ask for "hock" on a pig you actually get the forearm (from the forequarter). The actual hock joint on the hindquarter forms part of the "leg of ham" so it doesn't get sold separately.

'well let down hocks' was probably used originally because most people in those day were familar with the term from the world of horses and would interpret it in the same way.Pauline

Correct!

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The pigs in Australia must be made different to the pigs we over here,.We know what we are getting with a ham hock............. a good pot of soup!!!!!!!!!

 

[dragonfly]

For me the dark brindle bitch is far too long in her second thigh, but her hocks are well let down, so that is my theorie out of the window that with a correct second thigh the hocks are usually well let down. When you breed to exagerate the back end you will find that the second thigh becomes long and weak.

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I think quite a bit of that hock is buried in vegetation! So maybe not as neat as it appears at first glance.

Cathie

 

[Natalia]

I think quite a bit of that hock is buried in vegetation! So maybe not as neat as it appears at first glance.

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:lol:

same dog:

 

[zafonic]

I think that it is very difficult to assess any animals angles etc without seeing then in true life, getting hands on them and be able to genuinly assess thier virtues or not as the case maybe. Photos can be very misleading and a very good animal can be made to look terrible and transversly a terrible animal can, with cleaver photography and stacking, be made to look half decent!!

 

[zafonic]

i must thank whoever put the picture of my bitch sbis, bis & ir ch Barnesmore Black Orchid on this thread (though the pic is actually copyright to irish canine press!) I was delighted that seraphina chose to point out her correct angulation both front and back, though the pic does make her look a bit long at the back end, the second one of her is more true to her hind angles. She has always passed her correct conformation on to her progeny which include the multi champions B. Pony Soljer and B. Galileo, along with the top whippet in spain 07 and her stock enabled us to win the breeders group trophy in sweden in 07.

Barnesmore whippets, greyhounds and ibizans. :luck:

 

[barnesmore]

just want to thank walter and michael for letting me use their id. have joined myself now!!

Barnesmore

 

[ROSIE MEADOWS]

It's fascinating to see all the comparisons with horses.

Where movement is concerned do we need to see impulsion, cadence, moving on two tracks, tracking up, front extension, elevation etc as we do in horse circles?

A good horse on the bit is truly a delight to sit on, you are floating on air, another term used, usually in connection with the Arabian horse.