British And American Whippets

[zafonic]

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i would also like to say how brilliant this thread is, it has had more replies than most of the rest put together and what a great way for us all to share our thoughts on what we are looking for and how truly an international breed the whippet has become. :huggles:

 

[seaspot_run]

it is interesting, how though the americans have thier own desired choices, when they have come to judge here in ireland more often than not it is the very english type that they put up! 3 of our baggio's (ir/int ch barnesmore goes zafonic) cacibs came from american judges and he could not be more english in type! Also interestingly here, it is the european judges who tend to put up the more american types, which you would have thought that it would have been the other way around. :blink:

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When UK judges come here, I find that most of their winners are dogs who also do well under American breeder/judges and all-arounders. It's a bit easier to get a win on a dog with great shape and true gait who isn't a big side mover under them, but not always.

People are forever bringing dogs they think are more UK type to those shows, but they don't do anything with them.

 

[quintessence]

Karen, When you say 'big side mover' do you mean one which is extravagant in movement.

Jenny

I am so loving this thread it's like doing a degree in 'Whippet'

 

[UKUSA]

In response to Parnews previous post. For me it would always be about quality, if the larger of two males was the better of the two that would be the one that I would use. I would rather have something alittle bigger and full of quality than something correct for size but totally lacking in quality.

nicky

 

[patsy]

Karen it might seem that the dogs that I mentioned that were exported to the states were at the top end of the size scale but they were all top winners. The fabulous Courtney Fleetfoot was a group and best in show winner. At that time the Americans came over to this country and put very big offers in for whippets they wanted to buy. I well remember the day that I had a phone call from Jane Forsyth the famous American handler that she was on her way to try to buy Ch Novacroft Madrigal from Freda and I, she said she would be arriving in two hours time, what a state we were in, at the time we had a very busy poodle trimming buisness, we had poodles all over the place in different stages of their trims. What we did was this,we took them all back to their owners and told them that the clippers had broken, we would get them mended and return for them the next day and finish them of. We then went out and bought goodies for afternoon tea and a nice bottle of wine. What a lovely afternoon we had, but was sorry to have to tell them that Madgrigal call name Mcleod, was not for sale there was not enough money in the world to buy him, whippets have always kept me very poor and this was one of the reasons. Now he was not a big dog, just on 20ins. She asked if I knew where there was another brindle and white Champion dog that could be for sale, I phoned Phil Moran-Healy and sent Jane over the hill to Sheffeld, thats when Ch. Hillsdown Repique came to the states, Phil said he would buy me a Gin and Tonic and I am Still waiting.

In answer to Zafonic all the Americans that I have showed under over the years do not put up American type dogs, I learned a hard lesson in taking the wrong dogs. Yes it is definately the judges from Europe that go to this type.

I think it is a lot to do with the American and English standards being different size wise, and yes they have come over and appreciated correct sized fawns, it just shows they are concious of our standard and done their homework.

 

[UKUSA]

Patsy, I am very pleased that you have shared this piece of Whippet history because ofcourse the natural assumption would be that these dogs left these shores because they were to big for here when as you have pointed out these dogs were already big winners here. Patsy is getting yonderly so I urge you all to pick her brain while you still can!!!

Its great that everyone is still enjoying this thread 17 pages, its got to be a record!

Nicky

 

[dessie]

Patsy, I am very pleased that you have shared this piece of Whippet history because ofcourse the natural assumption would be that these dogs left these shores because they were to big for here when as you have pointed out these dogs were already big winners here. Patsy is getting yonderly so I urge you all to pick her brain while you still can!!!Its great that everyone is still enjoying this thread 17 pages, its got to be a record!

Nicky

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yonderly ............. good word! Not heard that before but I think I like it!!!

 

[seaspot_run]

Madrigal's son, of course, came over as a young dog. Some of the dogs who were imported were already UK champions, but a great many were not (such as Barn Dance, who is still the top-producing import sire of all time).

Hardknott Maestro of Bohem was a medium-sized dog for over here.

I'm just relaying what I was told by a breeder who imported over eight Whippets from the UK, and also what I saw in books by authors like Bo, about some of the UK dogs and why they were chosen and available for export to the US. It was certainly not intended to be a blanket statement to cover every single import that was brought over. Of course some of those dogs were able to win in the UK and were small enough. Fleetfoot was not a big dog, by our standards.

More recently, we've brought in Australian imports who have been able to win championship in Australia before winning championships here, and they have NOT looked small in our rings.

Size differences are a lot less on average than many here seem to think, despite our different standards, and that's my story, and I'm sticking to it!

 

[fable]

A couple of years ago the monthly match at our ringcraft was judged by Beth Sweigart, a professional dog handler in the States. I was very surprised - and extremely pleased - when Lily won best adult , she is a classic English fawn whippet , so I guess the judge must have known the type.

Val

 

[Scudder]

I think perception has a lot to do with the size differences. If you ask people here in the US their general opinions about UK dogs and showing they always seem to think they are rather tiny and small. If you ask people in the UK who haven't seen our dogs in the flesh, some think we're consistantly showing 22.5" dogs all the time.

People who have dealt with import lines or have travelled across the pond (in both directions) realize that the height difference isn't that great, although we seem to have a bit more variety in our styles here in the US.

My best male so far has been Riggins and he fits under our bitch wicket with air to spare. If he's 21" tall we'd be lucky. My hot young dog, Butters, was just measured the other day at 21" on his tip toes. He gives the impression of being much larger though both in real life and in photos.

I think the different way of stacking in photos can give you a false impression about dogs as well. We tend to stack for that super long neck and slightly bent head which definitely makes a dog appear taller and can also make them look up on their pasterns.

I'm certainly not saying we don't have our fair share of straight fronted whippets, but I think our tendancy to photograph dogs as stallions with long necks doesn't help you see a true representation of the dog, either.

Kristen

 

[julie_s]

I am so loving this thread it's like doing a degree in 'Whippet'

great quote! I completely agree and I can't wait to see what's in the next seminar... colour and pigmentation? (from one who has a white and black whippet :- " )

 

[seaspot_run]

Karen, When you say 'big side mover' do you mean one which is extravagant in movement.
Jenny

I am so loving this thread it's like doing a degree in 'Whippet'

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I guess that's right. I would say "extreme". Something more like we see here on some of the sporting and herding breeds, in general. Breeds whose working gait IS the trot.

 

[anniewhippet]

forgot to add in my post that the 'pace' of Dollys dog , Harry, in his super movement picture is totally different to the 'pace' in the lovely pic. of Juley with her pup but can I ask, as she did , can anyone see a noticeable difference?

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This is an interesting question - can anyone see a noticeable difference? I've had my husband move Frankie up and down the gargen at various speeds today (Frankie wondered what on earth we were doing i think!) At the rear he stayed the same, he did not go close as we picked up the pace. Front movement (as is Berry's in the pick Juley posted), lovely and straight both slow and at a pretty brisk pace too.

However, we are looking at pictures of Whippets who do move well. If pace is increased with a dog that does not move correctly, does the problem become easier to spot?

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Have looked back at your pic jok of Frankies lovely side profile movement, if as you say he moves in front as per the pics suppied by Juley & Harry, I too would be interested in the replies with respect to the 'centre line' part of this overall discussion. :thumbsup:

 

[Seraphina]

In response to Parnews previous post. For me it would always be about quality, if the larger of two males was the better of the two that would be the one that I would use.  I would rather have something alittle bigger and full of quality than something correct for size but totally lacking in quality.nicky

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Yes but if you keep picking the one just little bit bigger in 10 years you may end up with 26" Whippet.

If you have absolutely stunning puppy in all respects but it decides to stand its ears up, or its mouth moves or it has some other problem, what do you do? I would place it in pet home. If one grows too big it would also be sent to pet home.

 

[patsy]

Karen, When you say 'big side mover' do you mean one which is extravagant in movement.
Jenny

I am so loving this thread it's like doing a degree in 'Whippet'

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I guess that's right. I would say "extreme". Something more like we see here on some of the sporting and herding breeds, in general. Breeds whose working gait IS the trot.

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I don,t think that a whippet whose standard has no exagerations front or rear should have an extravagant side gate ,showing reach and drive yes, moving easily over the groung with a long easy stride.As i said in a earlier post when I judged on the East coast of America it was on the whole not a lot different than judging here. I did think that the handlers put a lot more into showmanship.

 

[doris]

This is my (then) 8 1/2 month old puppy moving at a decent speed!  (w00t) . She ( to me) seems to look like Harry and be lovely and straight at the front.

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Who's that lady in black behind you, sitting with her dog held in a very provocative pose?

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I just know she's thinking "Um that's a smart jacket, I must get myself a little number like that"

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do you know what? I was thinking how much I liked your jacket, and how pleased I am that I decided to go for a nice red one instead of a boring old black one - and I was right, cos I didn't even notice the 'lady' dressed in boring old black!!! (w00t) Luckily Monty's mobile fig leave was on hand :thumbsup: :lol:

edited to say, its Juley's jacket I was admiring, not Jenny's - I prefer Jenny's socks :lol:

 

[UKUSA]

In response to Parnews previous post. For me it would always be about quality, if the larger of two males was the better of the two that would be the one that I would use.  I would rather have something alittle bigger and full of quality than something correct for size but totally lacking in quality.nicky

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Yes but if you keep picking the one just little bit bigger in 10 years you may end up with 26" Whippet.

If you have absolutely stunning puppy in all respects but it decides to stand its ears up, or its mouth moves or it has some other problem, what do you do? I would place it in pet home. If one grows too big it would also be sent to pet home.

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If you are a sensible breeder that isnt what happens. If you find that you keep getting big then you rethink your breeding program. I have had winning dogs at both end of the size scale, Ch Barnesmore Dream Weaver at Savuka, top end and Courthill Clockwork Orange at Savuka ,4 R.C.Cs at the bottom end and bred to correct size bitches have produced the goods, correct size. Ofcourse if you mate to big dogs your chances of getting something with size increases. It also might be that in that first litter you might not get everything that you want but it gives you something to go forward with. That is what I had to do when I returned to England 19years ago and the puppy that I am having a lot of successs with at the moment is a direct decendent of one of those dogs through the bitch line.

Nicky

 

[quintessence]

I was thinking last night about Ch Courtney Fleetfoot of Pennyworth. I remember when I was in my early teens being at a show and Bert his owner wanted to go to the loo and he asked me to hold Ricky for him, he jumped up on my knee and curled up. I haven't thought about that for years. :wub: Ricky was 19 and 3/4" in height, he would be a small dog today.

Jenny

 

[Judy]

forgot to add in my post that the 'pace' of Dollys dog , Harry, in his super movement picture is totally different to the 'pace' in the lovely pic. of Juley with her pup but can I ask, as she did , can anyone see a noticeable difference?

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This is an interesting question - can anyone see a noticeable difference? I've had my husband move Frankie up and down the gargen at various speeds today (Frankie wondered what on earth we were doing i think!) At the rear he stayed the same, he did not go close as we picked up the pace. Front movement (as is Berry's in the pick Juley posted), lovely and straight both slow and at a pretty brisk pace too.

However, we are looking at pictures of Whippets who do move well. If pace is increased with a dog that does not move correctly, does the problem become easier to spot?

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Have looked back at your pic jok of Frankies lovely side profile movement, if as you say he moves in front as per the pics suppied by Juley & Harry, I too would be interested in the replies with respect to the 'centre line' part of this overall discussion. :thumbsup:

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Ok, here's my reply :thumbsup:

It seems to me there must be some confusion over what is moving straight, moving to close and converging. We must be talking about different things because converging is moving straight. The columns of the legs are straight and the front and hind legs on the same side are in the same plane but the paws are set down closer to the dogs centre line than when the dog is standing still with straight legs, being supported by all 4 paws instead of just two as in the trot.

If the dog did not converge it would have to constantly move his weight from side to side, depending on which leg was supporting him at the time, in order to shift his centre of gravity over the support and this produces a rolling gait.

On the other hand moving close, which is a different thing and is faulty movement, (perhaps caused by a long weak second thigh as Patsy says) is when the columns of the legs are not moving in straight planes. This is much easier to see with the naked eye than convergence because convergence looks so natural (because it is). I suspect that when people are observing their dogs being moved up and down they are looking at how close the legs come together rather than where the paw is set down which is much harder to see.

If you look at some of the racing photographs on this board, where the dogs are running toward the camera, you can see picture after picture after picture that clearly show that the paws are being set down under the centre of the dog. Of course the amount of convergence is much more dramatic in the gallop as there are phases of only one paw being on the ground at a time. Here's a link Racing photos

In this picture Harry is showing off (as everybody has agreed) his beautiful, correct and straight movement. On both sides his legs are moving in perfectly straight planes which are parallel to his direction of motion and he is in fact (at least in my opinion) starting to converge.

The photo is not quite straight (look at the line of the carpet and the struts between chair legs) but if you draw a line down his centre line and perpendicular to the ground you can see that his front left paw which is supporting him has in fact been set down closer to his centre line than is the other leg which is in the act of being brought forward and is not in a support phase. The vertical planes of the left and right legs are not quite parallel to each other, although the direction of their motion is.

If Helen would give me permission I could reproduce the photo with a grid over it to show you what I mean and I think this might help to show that properly moving dogs do converge. I don't think we are disagreeing about what correct movement is, just whether or not dogs do in fact converge, perhaps because of our different understandings of what it is.

The photo of Juley looks to me like she has just come round a left hand corner or is just starting out as both her and the dog are leaning to the left to balance themselves. Neither Juley's or her dogs legs are perpendicular to the ground. Nothing wrong there, they just haven't straighten up yet. If you look at the left foreleg it is being bought forward at an angle not perpendicular to the ground but angled in toward the centre line of the dog.

 

[aslan]

That is just what I would have said but didn't have the energy to type it.