Racing/lure coursing

[chelynnah]

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The racing and lure coursing class qualifier is .....To have won a race at a WCRA affiliated club or a course at the BSFA

Now not wanting to be a trouble causer but why did it take a racing person to answer my question? surely all the show people know what the requirments are?

Thanks Hannah, think we'll enter Mo & Max next year have a bit of fun by joining in, best get some weight off and some nice cloths or should I turn out in check shirt and wellies?

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Well some show people did answer - with a different response - so it seems there is still some confusion.

However the reason a race person could answer better is that they are RACE classes - so the show people who don't race don't enter, so have never bothered to look at the qualifications since it doesn't apply to them.

Wendy

 

[masta]

what i find interesting is how easy it is to qualify (20,000+dogs) i always imagined it was the "creme de la creme" but then again £1.2million in entry fees a year must come in handy pays for top class presenters like fogle (w00t)

 

[Strike Whippets]

Fogle (w00t) ........Now that is funny :lol: ......Nearly worth a TV license :wacko: :unsure: :blink: :- "

 

[*Lesley*]

Sorry, Rooney Turbo Dog but with that comment you ARE going to offend the owner of the BOB winner, regardless of how you try and justify it.  The biggest event of the show year, your dog wins BOB, one of the most glorious wins one could ever hope for and someone says "how the hell did that dog win?"  I don't know Alayna or the dog at all (except that she is mentioned as the winning owner on here)  but, for God's sake, can't you just let someone have their moment in the sun?

I have no idea how long you've been in the breed, and perhaps I am talking to an expert, but comments like that are best kept to yourself.

I gather you are from the racing fraternity?  Put yourself in a similar situation ... you've been working and training your dog for a very big prestigious race ... the biggest of the racing calendar and your dog wins it.  Then someone gets on a public forum and says "how the hell did that dog win that?"  What does the comment suggest?

Secondly Mark - you are a k9 moderator ... you have "highjacked" (unconsciously though it may have been) a results thread and turned it into a discussion on whether a certain class should be allowed to exist as it is .... this is a completely different topic .... and it is bringing up age old discussions that will go on forever  - you should have started another thread, or once it started to gain momentum have it shifted.  And I would at this point like to ask Wendy or Nigel to move this discussion to a thread of its own.  I would also like to say that in essence I agree with you, Mark - if a dog is going to be entered in the racing/coursing class - it should be a dog that races or courses on a fairly regular basis (but what would be determined as regular enough?).  OR perhaps the name of the class should be modified to Racing/Coursing Bred - that way people who own a r/c bred dog but who don't actually participate in the pursuit could still enter their dog.

In general, to no-one in particular -

Jue's Gracie doesn't look like a "prick-eared, cowhocked miner's dog" to me.  I don't know her background but she looks like a well-conformed whippet puppy.

And unless my memory is failing me Lesley's two "Calenna" girls are show bred - and from the Dumbriton kennel no less - am I wrong?  So if they are being held up as two good examples of racing whippets who should be entering shows then isn't  the old argument (which has sprung up here again) that show bred whippets can't do what they were originally intended to do, being negated?

I have always maintained that a well put together racing dog should be able to win at shows.  Racing people (from the discussions I have witnessed on k9 over the years) seem to maintain that racing bred whippets are different and have gone so far as to say that they are straight shouldered, have less chest, and are often cow-hocked.  I don't believe that is necessarily true across the board.  I have seen some very nice racing bred whippets.  And what about the stacks of American/Canadian dogs who participate and win in both pursuits?  With regard to ears ... as far as I can tell a lot of racing whippets are only prick-eared because racing breeders don't care about ears!  "They don't run on their ears" - how many times have we heard that?

Finally, I am tired of the rubbishing that show dogs get from the racing people.  And I am yet to see on this site show people rubbishing racing whippets in the same manner and so often.  When it all boils down a whippet is a whippet and its owner chooses what pursuit/s they will participate in.  If you don't like showing or the dogs who do it, stay away and don't keep telling us how horrible our dogs are.  We love them just like you love yours. 

I often fantasized that I'd like to live in England and be involved in racing (as well as showing) but gees, some of the people that keep voicing their "Holier than thou" attitudes on this site have really put me off.  They love to pop into the showing forums and stir the pot.  I have also felt this attitude in the chat room.  It just seems like there are some who love to perpetuate the segregation!  And for me they are succeeding!  I pop into the ped racing section from time to time too - but I have never made derogatory comments about any of the dogs in particular or racing dogs in general.  Why would I?  I like to see what people are achieving with their dogs even if I don't participate in that endeavour - I can appreciate that those who do put a lot of time and effort into it and it's not my place to tell them their dog is horrible.

PS - rather than having to type racing/coursing/lure coursing every time - you can assume that I mean that nearly every time I have used the word 'racing'

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(w00t) no wonder my ears have been burning today :lol: I love all whippets any occupation, any size, any colour, any shape :wub: :wub: :wub:

 

[Mark Roberts]

However the reason a race person could answer better is that they are RACE classes - so the show people who don't race don't enter, so have never bothered to look at the qualifications since it doesn't apply to them

But a lot of show people do enter with dogs that either dont race or have only a run or 2 in the previous 2-4 years.

Thanks for your reply Angela I found it very informative and very usefull, I think I have my Handler sorted out for Crufts (and all shows LOL) as Beaker owes me a little (well massive) favour.

I had thought about turning out in my racing gear for a bit of fun but I feel that wouldnt be showing the respect to the judge that I feel they would deserve in their ring so Beaker has kindly offord to handle her for us if she does get there.(the bitch not Beaker (although I may have refered to her as the later once or twice last night :- " )

I know we'd have no chance of winning or probably even getting placed but i'd like to see more race bred types entered so that all lines of whippets are represented in a class that as its name would suggest is for dogs that race/lure course, I know several show breds do race or lure course regularly and do very very well as you would expect a whippet to do but lets get those out of the ring that use it as an easy class who dont race/lure course (or have never live coursed).

 

[aslan]

The judge is required to judge all the classes/dogs by the breed standard, as set out by the kennel club

[SIZE=21pt]LOL[/SIZE]

i'll bring the measuring stick next time then.

Makes me laugh we all agree that whippets evolved from the northern mining towns? now from the pics i've seen in books I cant remember seeing any perfect rose petal ears ect ect quite the opposite pricked ears cow hocks ect so is the breed standard realy a true representation of the breed or is the breed being bred away from the original type whippet to fit the standard?.

What came 1st the whippet or the breed standard? and when did the original looks of the old time miners whippets get done away with pricked ears ect?.

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Agree Mark ! The breed standard is only a few words and open to so many differant interpretations. Yes over the years it has been modified to meet the envolvement of the breed, yes it happens to everything.......... we could still look like apes (w00t) but what would happen to the breed without it ? :unsure:

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When was the first whippet standard written and does anyone have a copy?

I have this one from 1903 from Bo Bengston's book but I don't know if it was the first.

When you look at it - there's not really a lot that has been changed dramatically. Today's standard just shows more detail really - the biggest difference is that the minimum height has been raised, and the word 'fine' exists in general appearance. (I note with interest too that whilst the general appearance calls for 'fine', the forelegs call for 'a fair amount of bone'.

1903 Whippet Club Standard (obsolete)

General Appearance Fine and graceful; a greyhound in miniature.

Head Long and lean, rather wide between the eyes. and flat at the top

Eyes Bright and fiery

Nose Pointed :teehee:

Jaws Powerful and clean cut

Teeth Level and white (I would think that 'level' here means even not a "level bite"

Ears Small, fine in texture. and rose-shaped

Neck Long and muscular, elegantly arched and free from throatiness

Shoulders Oblique and muscular

Chest Deep and capacious

Back Broad and square, rather long and slightly arched over the loin

Loins Strong and powerful

Fore-legs Rather long, well set under the dog, possessing a fair amount of bone.

Hind-legs Strong and very muscular; stifles well bent, thighs broad and muscular; hocks well let down

Feet Round, well split up; with strong soles

Tail Long and tapering and nicely carried.

Coat Fine and close

Colour Black, red, white, brindle, fawn, blue and the various mixtures of each; it is a matter of indifference.

Height at Shoulder From 16 to 20 inches

Weight Ideal weight 20 lbs.

I have always believed (but of course I don't KNOW ), that people who owned racing/working whippets would have taken part in or been consulted about the writing of the standard. They had to be - that was what the breed was when some people got together and decided they wanted to compete in shows. (What came first? The Whippet of course) "Show breds" as such could not have been that far removed from the racers and workers in the beginning.

 

[Mark Roberts]

Cheers Aslan, (love you realy :huggles: )

Height at Shoulder From 16 to 20 inchesWeight Ideal weight 20 lbs.

I remember a few years ago the hight limit being raised as the dogs in the ring were getting bigger (racing breds tended stay smaller)

So the breed standard was probably changed to suit the dogs being bred not the dogs bred to meet the breed standard?, question is then where would changing the breed standard stop.

 

[BeeJay]

As folks might remember I own 'both' types of whippet. I own show/coursing breds and also racing breds and I race 'em all.

Ears my two racing bred adults rarely stick their ears up - they are from different lines. Neither of them have ring or curly tails. As racing breds they aren't alone in this and I know well established breeders who dislike flying ears. Two of my show breds have the most dreadful sticky up ears. My racing breds aren't cow hocked either. I don't know where these rude remarks have come from in terms of the look of racing breds. But whoever said them is more than welcome to go over my racing bred dogs and point out their sticky up ears, ring tails and cow hocks. Then when they can't maybe they would at least have a more informed viewpoint on racing bred dogs as a whole.

One of my racing breds has the most dreadful bite which stopped me from showing him. I would have showed this one because despite being only 19.5" at the shoulder he has the most beautiful muscled body. These days I don't go to shows anymore so have never tried to show the other one and have no interest in doing so as he proves his ability on the track which is what he was bred to do.

I'm not sure that the dogs in the racing/coursing classes haven't actually regularly participated those disciplines. It would have been nice to see if there was any 'proof' that the dogs entered into these classes aren't taking part in the events. Personally I wouldn't know which ones go coursing.

At the Whippet Club show the dogs that won in the racing classes all race regularly and most were racing bred from what I can remember of the results.

As for the point that show bred dogs can't race. Well they can, personally I've found them very easy to get going and less twitchy than racing bred dogs. However they are slower. I have one show bred who I would have put in any type of racing but he's only just come down in weight. He started racing as a veteran last July and he did very well and as I suspected was more than capable of beating the slower racing breds and sometimes some very good racing bred dogs.

After half an open seasons racing Bean finished 5th in the Superstars Veteran Cons League and Woody (show bred) won it. So no one can say they don't race regularly. Woody has also gone BOB with the BSFA, as a puppy he was nearly always placed in open shows, often with more dogs behind him than in front. Bean has of course been placed at Championship show level in post grad and limit classes as well as winning a heat in the Veteran races at the 3rd Champs (he came 4th out of 4 in the final and wasn't tailed off) and winning a hill sprint.

As for 'causing upset to those owners whose dogs win.

It happens all of the time. There are always bad losers in any competative arena. The amount of distress that some peoples comments on this board has caused people is quite shocking. It seems to me that there is always someone wanting to take away someone else's pleasure. If you or your dog is successful then the knives are going to be out.

 

[Joanna]

anyway thats my whole point as whippets have split into 2 destince types then surely the racing class should be aimed at racing breds not show breds or have 2 classes show breds that race/lure course and a class for true race breds..

But how would it be judged. Clearly, the breed standard is interpreted by the judge, the same judge who judges and picks show-bred dogs for that "type". Also, it is very easy to manipulate a race result at club level with a generous handicap for a racing show-bred so that they "win" a race. You will still get the show-breds within the group. Also, there are very nice dogs like Digger (Arjuna Joe Bloggs), and Dessie and Millie's lot, who do rather well at lure coursing, and will be competing against another show-bred in their course. I don't know the answer, but if folk want to take their race whippets for a laugh and pay their money, then it will just be for fun as it isn't a level playing field.

Oh and before I get slated, for any-one who doesn't know me, I own one of each, my racer is quite nice, scrawny, with a knobbly spine, but a beautiful head and a gay tail.He would be laughed out of the ring, but my show-bred would qualify for the group, he is lovely but I had his balls off as a youngster.......If he had his nuts intact, I wouldn't hesitate to put him in that group, and not the racer :- "

 

[Joanna]

I don't know where these rude remarks have come from in terms of the look of racing breds. But whoever said them is more than welcome to go over my racing bred dogs and point out their sticky up ears, ring tails and cow hocks. Then when they can't maybe they would at least have a more informed viewpoint on racing bred dogs as a whole.

As you will have read, that was me, tongue in cheek with a big smiley face at the end of the sentence.........Oh never mentioned cow hocks though..........Come-on own up that person!

 

[beaker]

However the reason a race person could answer better is that they are RACE classes - so the show people who don't race don't enter, so have never bothered to look at the qualifications since it doesn't apply to them

But a lot of show people do enter with dogs that either dont race or have only a run or 2 in the previous 2-4 years.

Thanks for your reply Angela I found it very informative and very usefull, I think I have my Handler sorted out for Crufts (and all shows LOL) as Beaker owes me a little (well massive) favour.

I had thought about turning out in my racing gear for a bit of fun but I feel that wouldnt be showing the respect to the judge that I feel they would deserve in their ring so Beaker has kindly offord to handle her for us if she does get there.(the bitch not Beaker (although I may have refered to her as the later once or twice last night :- " )

I know we'd have no chance of winning or probably even getting placed but i'd like to see more race bred types entered so that all lines of whippets are represented in a class that as its name would suggest is for dogs that race/lure course, I know several show breds do race or lure course regularly and do very very well as you would expect a whippet to do but lets get those out of the ring that use it as an easy class who dont race/lure course (or have never live coursed).

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i'll swing round yours around 7.20 monday night to pick Mo up and take her to ringcraft :thumbsup:

least i could do :*

 

[Strike Whippets]

I must get Connie to some ring craft .......Miyas just a natural and Helen Wayman said she would easily qualify for Crufts at champ shows not bad for a crap racing bred .......but unfortunatly I never got round to taking Helen up on her kind offer of handling her .........Jacob has also been admired by champ judges :wub: ......I'm glad the Whippet club show has racing judges, and believe it or not there are racing breeders out there that do breed to the breed standard......The Just Dandy x Emma line is lovely, as is some of Sue and Terrys lines, Kim Saxbys etc .......Connies going to Jedi Knight who has beaten show breds in racing classes .......Connie has a fab build with fantastic movement, her tail lets her down, but she does keep it down in the ring ......just like the show dogs do that fly their ears, tails etc .......Theres never going to be a completly flawless dog in ANY breed .......you just breed on and look for the qualities in the dog to complement your bitch .......I was gob smacked at the dogs at Crufts ......The only regular show types I see are Dessies, BeeJays, Helens and a few club dogs ......all of these look fit and powerful, just like a Whippet should .......but to see some of these huge, flabby, slabby dogs saddened me ........ JMHO though .......

 

[parnew]

Excuse my lack of Crufts knowledge, but how are you whippets judged for the Best coursing whippet. 1 is it against the whippet standard or 2 do they have a coursing track.

 

[BeeJay]

All the dogs are judged against the breed standard. They can't be judged any other way because it's a dog show.

 

[Louise_Simon]

If I hadn't had Daisy done I would join you next year in the racing/coursing class, she a small show bred who races regularly and might try her paw at coursing, but we would be laughed at if we had showed her as shes 18" ,20 1/2 lbs and blue but in my eyes perfect whippetness through and through.

Hannah might have had to fix a race for her to win :- "

 

[Strike Whippets]

If I hadn't had Daisy done I would join you next year in the racing/coursing class, she a small show bred who races regularly and might try her paw at coursing, but we would be laughed at if we had showed her as shes 18" ,20 1/2 lbs and blue but in my eyes perfect whippetness through and through.
Hannah might have had to fix a race for her to win  :- "

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Shes already won her qualifying race :thumbsup: ........as for her being done, just write to the kennel club with details and you'll be fine ......... We'll get her round a few companion shows this year

 

[BeeJay]

It's a good point though about how the dogs are judged.

It would be interesting to see what people think about this.

At what level should the dogs have reached in order for them to qualify to enter a special racing or coursing class?

Should they regularly compete but not necessarily win?

Should they have won a race or course?

Should they have won a group or the whole course?

Should they have won at club, or open level.

Should the classes be split into a racing and a coursing class at Crufts? As a lot of coursing dogs also do well in the show ring anyway.

 

[parnew]

All the dogs are judged against the breed standard.  They can't be judged any other way because it's a dog show.

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I thought as much....., (w00t) so the slowest coursing dog could win the best coursing dog at crufts :wacko: How funny is that, you could own the fastest coursing whippet for 2006 with prick ears and finish last in your class, beaten buy a dog that ran last at its only start two years ago with good ears and win best coursing dog at crufts. I agree with Mark, I think you should have to win or place at certian coursing tracks and events to qualify.

Cheers Griff

 

[Strike Whippets]

I think the classes should be split ........As for the qualifying I do feel that a race/heat win at least at open level .........As for coursing level again a class win .........If you look at how hard it is to qualify a dog for Crufts at a champ show, if the "novelty class" is to be taken seriously, as the class at the least proves the dogs in there are capable of doing what they were bred for now .......the anti should be upped so the top dogs of their field are competing :thumbsup: ......but JMHO

 

[chelynnah]

I think the classes should be split ........As for the qualifying I do feel that a race/heat win at least at open level    .........As for coursing level again a class win .........If you look at how hard it is to qualify a dog for Crufts at a champ show, if the "novelty class" is to be taken seriously, as the class at the least proves the dogs in there are capable of doing what they were bred for now .......the anti should be upped so the top dogs of their field are competing  :thumbsup:   ......but JMHO 

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I would totally agree with this. I would LOVE to see these classes with good quality racing/lure coursing dogs taken part and not to just be a novelty class where show dogs who've raced can participate. They shouldn't be a novelty class, they should definitely be earned, and I think what Hannah has said would be an excellent way of doing so.

Wendy