Racing/lure coursing

[~JO~]

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All the dogs are judged against the breed standard.  They can't be judged any other way because it's a dog show.

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I thought as much....., (w00t) so the slowest coursing dog could win the best coursing dog at crufts :wacko: How funny is that, you could own the fastest coursing whippet for 2006 with prick ears and finish last in your class, beaten buy a dog that ran last at its only start two years ago with good ears and win best coursing dog at crufts. I agree with Mark, I think you should have to win or place at certian coursing tracks and events to qualify.

Cheers Griff

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(w00t) I don't think its wierd at all - they are NOT being judged on their coursing ability, it is a DOG SHOW and therefore are judged against the breed standard only.

The class is not there to find the best coursing/racing dog - we have lure coursing and racing to do that!! Shows are purely to find a specimen of the breed which fits the judges interpretation of the breed standard, nothing more nothing less.

 

[parnew]

All the dogs are judged against the breed standard.  They can't be judged any other way because it's a dog show.

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I thought as much....., (w00t) so the slowest coursing dog could win the best coursing dog at crufts :wacko: How funny is that, you could own the fastest coursing whippet for 2006 with prick ears and finish last in your class, beaten buy a dog that ran last at its only start two years ago with good ears and win best coursing dog at crufts. I agree with Mark, I think you should have to win or place at certian coursing tracks and events to qualify.

Cheers Griff

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(w00t) I don't think its wierd at all - they are NOT being judged on their coursing ability, it is a DOG SHOW and therefore are judged against the breed standard only.

The class is not there to find the best coursing/racing dog - we have lure coursing and racing to do that!! Shows are purely to find a specimen of the breed which fits the judges interpretation of the breed standard, nothing more nothing less.

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I know how dog shows run, its just :wacko: to combine the two when coursing is all about THE FASTEST DOG not THE BEST LOOKING.

 

[Strike Whippets]

I don't think its weird at all - they are NOT being judged on their coursing ability, it is a DOG SHOW and therefore are judged against the breed standard only.
The class is not there to find the best coursing/racing dog - we have lure coursing and racing to do that!! Shows are purely to find a specimen of the breed which fits the judges interpretation of the breed standard, nothing more nothing less.

Yes this is true .......but as its so easy to win a club h/c race .......would it not surely be better to have racers in a racing class and lure coursers in a different class as these classes are just being made a mockery of .......It would be better if the dogs qualiflyer just like the show dogs can prove they have reached a high standard of lure coursing or racing to enter ........

 

[Joanna]

If you really want a level playing field, there would be no special group, and all whippets, whatever their background, would have to qualify in the same way.

 

[Mark Roberts]

i'll swing round yours around 7.20 monday night to pick Mo up and take her to ringcraft 
least i could do

Yes please Becka, and I agree its the least you could do LOL.

Hi BJ it was me that wrote questioning the elegibility of 2 of the dogs taking part in the racing & Coursing Classes (1 dog 1 bitch) i'll pm you more details regarding who said what.

Right to deal with BJ's Question regarding qualifying.

IMO there should be no minimum standard regarding race level reached to qualify, BUT IMO the dog concerned should be a regular at a racing club whether club/open/or champs racing or be a regular lure courser.

the class states for racing/lure coursing whippets it doesnt say fast ones so To me any dog that races on a regular basis should be able to take part regardless of its breeding (show/race/pet/working ect)

Ok heres my answer to the questions in order.

Should they regularly compete but not necessarily win? YES

Should they have won a race or course? NO (just compeated regularly)

Should they have won a group or the whole course? NO

Should they have won at club, or open level RACED AT EITHER (but not nesseraly won)

 

[Joanna]

i'll swing round yours around 7.20 monday night to pick Mo up and take her to ringcraft 
least i could do

Yes please Becka, and I agree its the least you could do LOL.

Hi BJ it was me that wrote questioning the elegibility of 2 of the dogs taking part in the racing & Coursing Classes (1 dog 1 bitch) i'll pm you more details regarding who said what.

Right to deal with BJ's Question regarding qualifying.

IMO there should be no minimum standard regarding race level reached to qualify, BUT IMO the dog concerned should be a regular at a racing club whether club/open/or champs racing or be a regular lure courser.

the class states for racing/lure coursing whippets it doesnt say fast ones so To me any dog that races on a regular basis should be able to take part regardless of its breeding (show/race/pet/working ect)

Ok heres my answer to the questions in order.

Should they regularly compete but not necessarily win? YES

Should they have won a race or course? NO (just compeated regularly)

Should they have won a group or the whole course? NO

Should they have won at club, or open level RACED AT EITHER (but not nesseraly won)

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How do you stop people coming racing for a while just to qualify their slabby show-breds? I think this will probably go round and round in circles forever, and we will probably still be having the discussion next year :wacko:

 

[Mark Roberts]

How do you stop people coming racing for a while just to qualify

IMO a club Secretary or lure coursing organiser should have to provide a letter staing that the whippet concerned had taken part in X amount of meetings over the previous 12 months,

i'm not suggesting that a dog should race week in week out but IMO it MUST have done 1 or the other and it must have dont it say once a month for the previous 12 months (less if a pup) but the owner IMO must show that they are not just useing the class as an easy option.

although like anything else it's open to a mate doing a letter for a mate?.

At Crufts in the dog racing/lure coursing class (never saw the bitch class) there were a few very well turned out dogs, that looked like they could be taken outside and raced/lure coursed, nice fit/toned dogs with good even muscule tone who's owners obviously put a lot of work in with them, but also there were a few who looked like they very rearly if ever got off the couch except to feed who were carrying little sign of fitness no real muscule tone and a good layer of condition "fat"

far from wanting to stop show breds taking part i'd be more than happy to turn up next year and show against any of the show breds (race breds what ever) as long as you know that they genuinely took part on a regular basis at least that way I would come home knowing i'd been beaten by a better dog that was there on merit as it had raced or lure coursed regularly and so had earned its place as a whippet who as the class describs Races or Lure Courses.

 

[Joanna]

How do you stop people coming racing for a while just to qualify

IMO a club Secretary or lure coursing organiser should have to provide a letter staing that the whippet concerned had taken part in X amount of meetings over the previous 12 months,

i'm not suggesting that a dog should race week in week out but IMO it MUST have done 1 or the other and it must have dont it say once a month for the previous 12 months (less if a pup) but the owner IMO must show that they are not just useing the class as an easy option.

although like anything else it's open to a mate doing a letter for a mate?.

At Crufts in the dog racing/lure coursing class there were a few very well turned out dogs, that looked like they could be taken outside and raced/lure coursed nice fit/tones dogs with good even muscule tone who's owners obviously put a lot of work in with them, but also there were a few who looked like they very rearly if ever got off the couch except to feed who were carrying little sign of fitness no real muscule tone and a good layer of condition "fat"

far from wanting to stop show breds taking part i'd be more than happy to turn up next year and show against any of the show breds (race breds what ever) as long as you know that they genuinely took part on a regular basis at least that way I would come home knowing i'd been beaten by a better dog that was there on merit as it had raced or lure coursed regularly and so had earned its place as a whippet who as the class describs Races or Lure Courses.

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Yes, I could see how that would work, but at the end of the day, it all comes down to the judge's interpretation of the breed standard. Its an arbitrary discipline when all is said and done, and if the vogue of the moment is a larger, well covered dog, our little skinny things with their nobbles and bobbles are not really going to get a look in. I can remember the first time I saw racing whippets, I was horrified as they looked underweight and slightly odd as I was used to seeing the show bred dogs. In essence, I believe that this is why a true racer will never win that group as the judge will have had their hands on the chunkier show-breds and that is what their eye will appreciate and be tuned in to. I don't say any of this to be argumentative, and we all love our dogs dearly, but I bet a pound to a penny, that a show bred takes the title next year. If racing dog owners want to go for a bit of fun, great! My advice, fatten up your dogs if you want a chance of being placed :thumbsup:

 

[Mark Roberts]

but I bet a pound to a penny, that a show bred takes the title next year. If racing dog owners want to go for a bit of fun, great! My advice, fatten up your dogs if you want a chance of being placed

NAH if it works out and we can enter Mo (Parkstone Sweet Ebony) she will attend in her race condition.

we wont win but at least we took part! god help those sat ring side when she jumps on the knees for a cuddle. :lol:

 

[BeeJay]

>Hi BJ it was me that wrote questioning the elegibility of 2 of the dogs taking part in the racing & Coursing Classes (1 dog 1 bitch) i'll pm you more details regarding who said what.

Ah I must admit that I only read the posts from the top of page 5. A little pup is keeping me distracted here. Also at home hence why I'm on here.

Thanks for the pm btw. :thumbsup: So sad that they'd kinda boast about the fact that it was the only way that they could get to show those dogs at Crufts.

 

[BeeJay]

but I bet a pound to a penny, that a show bred takes the title next year. If racing dog owners want to go for a bit of fun, great! My advice, fatten up your dogs if you want a chance of being placed

NAH if it works out and we can enter Mo (Parkstone Sweet Ebony) she will attend in her race condition.

we wont win but at least we took part! god help those sat ring side when she jumps on the knees for a cuddle. :lol:

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Good for you Mark. If I was showing mine there then I'd want them in racing nick because I am very proud of how fit my dogs look.

Personally I think that it's great that folks who show their whippets also race and lure course them and for them to be able to show off that fact is something that I wouldn't want to see end. I know many show folks who are very proud of the fact that their dogs don't just trot around a show ring looking beautiful but also catch bunnies and chase lures on a regular basis.

 

[TC]

i'll swing round yours around 7.20 monday night to pick Mo up and take her to ringcraft 
least i could do

Yes please Becka, and I agree its the least you could do LOL.

Hi BJ it was me that wrote questioning the elegibility of 2 of the dogs taking part in the racing & Coursing Classes (1 dog 1 bitch) i'll pm you more details regarding who said what.

Right to deal with BJ's Question regarding qualifying.

IMO there should be no minimum standard regarding race level reached to qualify, BUT IMO the dog concerned should be a regular at a racing club whether club/open/or champs racing or be a regular lure courser.

the class states for racing/lure coursing whippets it doesnt say fast ones so To me any dog that races on a regular basis should be able to take part regardless of its breeding (show/race/pet/working ect)

Ok heres my answer to the questions in order.

Should they regularly compete but not necessarily win? YES

Should they have won a race or course? NO (just compeated regularly)

Should they have won a group or the whole course? NO

Should they have won at club, or open level RACED AT EITHER (but not nesseraly won)

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How do you stop people coming racing for a while just to qualify their slabby show-breds? I think this will probably go round and round in circles forever, and we will probably still be having the discussion next year :wacko:

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I think you're right Jo, it could go on and on :thumbsup:

Mark, it's actually quite difficult to qualify a show bred dog for Crufts, competing time after time in large classes at Champ Shows hoping that your dog is going to perform on the day, and look it's best, and be good enough in the judges eyes.

So to play devils advocate here, what you suggest means that I could bring mine racing once a month and qualify IMO, the easy way. I'm sorry to be blunt, but it's true :wacko:

If the restrictions are in place in the Lure Coursing / Open Racing Class at Crufts, then that's fair enough, again they must be good dogs to have won courses/classes etc.

I don't ever expect to win at Crufts, but I'd like to think my dog was deemed good enough to be there, rather than be there because I took him to club racing a few times.

 

[TC]

i'll swing round yours around 7.20 monday night to pick Mo up and take her to ringcraft 
least i could do

Yes please Becka, and I agree its the least you could do LOL.

Hi BJ it was me that wrote questioning the elegibility of 2 of the dogs taking part in the racing & Coursing Classes (1 dog 1 bitch) i'll pm you more details regarding who said what.

Right to deal with BJ's Question regarding qualifying.

IMO there should be no minimum standard regarding race level reached to qualify, BUT IMO the dog concerned should be a regular at a racing club whether club/open/or champs racing or be a regular lure courser.

the class states for racing/lure coursing whippets it doesnt say fast ones so To me any dog that races on a regular basis should be able to take part regardless of its breeding (show/race/pet/working ect)

Ok heres my answer to the questions in order.

Should they regularly compete but not necessarily win? YES

Should they have won a race or course? NO (just compeated regularly)

Should they have won a group or the whole course? NO

Should they have won at club, or open level RACED AT EITHER (but not nesseraly won)

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How do you stop people coming racing for a while just to qualify their slabby show-breds? I think this will probably go round and round in circles forever, and we will probably still be having the discussion next year :wacko:

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I think you're right Jo, it could go on and on :thumbsup:

Mark, it's actually quite difficult to qualify a show bred dog for Crufts, competing time after time in large classes at Champ Shows hoping that your dog is going to perform on the day, and look it's best, and be good enough in the judges eyes.

So to play devils advocate here, what you suggest means that I could bring mine racing once a month and qualify IMO, the easy way. I'm sorry to be blunt, but it's true :wacko:

If the restrictions are in place in the Lure Coursing / Open Racing Class at Crufts, then that's fair enough, again they must be good dogs to have won courses/classes etc.

I don't ever expect to win at Crufts, but I'd like to think my dog was deemed good enough to be there, rather than be there because I took him to club racing a few times.

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God, this whole thing is a nightmare :wacko: I'm re-reading my post and it sounds like I am being derogatory to racing, that is not the case at all

I race one of mine regularly, and he has won races, and classes at Lure Coursing, so I hope this shows I really enjoy all of these activities. I appreciate that it takes good dogs to compete at high levels, and this is the point I was trying to make.

I hope that makes sense :thumbsup:

 

[Paula Roberts]

Know what you mean about the weight issue Joanna. (w00t) many years ago we showed Our Rose her racing weight was 24lb to go into the show ring she had to be 28lb she won 5/6 that she was entered in, one judge said she had the most perfect ears he had ever seen in a whippet,( they didnt have race/coursing class then, she was put in with the show breds) but she couldnt race for she was to haevy and blew up after 50 yds, so Mark has said that if he shows Mo she will go into the race/coursing class as she would look if she was going to a race meeting, :- " she will no doubt be the skinniest there but i bet she"ll also be one of the fittest :thumbsup:

 

[TC]

i'll swing round yours around 7.20 monday night to pick Mo up and take her to ringcraft 
least i could do

Yes please Becka, and I agree its the least you could do LOL.

Hi BJ it was me that wrote questioning the elegibility of 2 of the dogs taking part in the racing & Coursing Classes (1 dog 1 bitch) i'll pm you more details regarding who said what.

Right to deal with BJ's Question regarding qualifying.

IMO there should be no minimum standard regarding race level reached to qualify, BUT IMO the dog concerned should be a regular at a racing club whether club/open/or champs racing or be a regular lure courser.

the class states for racing/lure coursing whippets it doesnt say fast ones so To me any dog that races on a regular basis should be able to take part regardless of its breeding (show/race/pet/working ect)

Ok heres my answer to the questions in order.

Should they regularly compete but not necessarily win? YES

Should they have won a race or course? NO (just compeated regularly)

Should they have won a group or the whole course? NO

Should they have won at club, or open level RACED AT EITHER (but not nesseraly won)

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​

How do you stop people coming racing for a while just to qualify their slabby show-breds? I think this will probably go round and round in circles forever, and we will probably still be having the discussion next year :wacko:

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I think you're right Jo, it could go on and on :thumbsup:

Mark, it's actually quite difficult to qualify a show bred dog for Crufts, competing time after time in large classes at Champ Shows hoping that your dog is going to perform on the day, and look it's best, and be good enough in the judges eyes.

So to play devils advocate here, what you suggest means that I could bring mine racing once a month and qualify IMO, the easy way. I'm sorry to be blunt, but it's true :wacko:

If the restrictions are in place in the Lure Coursing / Open Racing Class at Crufts, then that's fair enough, again they must be good dogs to have won courses/classes etc.

I don't ever expect to win at Crufts, but I'd like to think my dog was deemed good enough to be there, rather than be there because I took him to club racing a few times.

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God, this whole thing is a nightmare :wacko: I'm re-reading my post and it sounds like I am being derogatory to racing, that is not the case at all

I race one of mine regularly, and he has won races, and classes at Lure Coursing, so I hope this shows I really enjoy all of these activities. I appreciate that it takes good dogs to compete at high levels, and this is the point I was trying to make.

I hope that makes sense :thumbsup:

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I've cracked it now :b

Your post re the qualification required to enter Racing/Coursing classes at Crufts would be the same as saying that I should just go to lots of shows (and these could be any kind of show) and it doesn't matter if I never get placed, the fact that I've gone a minimum number of times means that I am good enough to qualify to enter and show my dogs at Crufts.

:sweating: I got there in the end :thumbsup:

p.s. this is not aimed at you Mark I'm just answering your post

 

[Mark Roberts]

Good for you Mark. If I was showing mine there then I'd want them in racing nick because I am very proud of how fit my dogs look.

As you all know Paula does 99% of the work with ours, she walks them 4 miles a day (every day) they then have 15 minutes each ball work (with one of those arms that you fling a tennis ball 75yds)

So There is no way I would put weight on her just for the showing she would be presented to the judge in her race fit hard condition

Personally I think that it's great that folks who show their whippets also race and lure course them and for them to be able to show off that fact is something that I wouldn't want to see end. I know many show folks who are very proud of the fact that their dogs don't just trot around a show ring looking beautiful but also catch bunnies and chase lures on a regular basis.

I fully agree theres are some fantastic owners who have show breds who try and keep the working abilities of their dogs alive by either working/racing/lure coursing them and those are the ones I realy admire.

God, this whole thing is a nightmare  I'm re-reading my post and it sounds like I am being derogatory to racing, that is not the case at all 
I race one of mine regularly, and he has won races, and classes at Lure Coursing, so I hope this shows I really enjoy all of these activities. I appreciate that it takes good dogs to compete at high levels, and this is the point I was trying to make

umm now you know how I feel LOL, my intention when I started this descussion was never to rubbish anyones dogs or any certain lines but I think a few took it that I was the typicle racer who wanted to come on the show section and slag show breds off, totaly the wronge conclusion.

What I did want was to open a descussion as to why there were at least 2 dogs showing in the racing/lure coursing class that obviously by their owners own admission either hadnt ever raced or lure coursed or had only done it once over 2 years previous?.

I attended a talk in (Whippet Club Racing Association Talk in) around 5 years ago and Mr Meager (Whippet Club Sec) stated that the racing & Coursing class (as it was then before the ban) was to give racers/coursers a chance to take part and show against their own type of dog (or very simlar words it was a long time ago)

So what i've been trying to get accross is as an owner of KC registered racing bred whippets i'd be more than happy to take part (win or loose) but I want to know that when I got beat i'd been beaten by a whippet that actualy races & lure Courses, not I dont care how that dogs bred that beats me (race/show/pet/coursing) as long as it actualy takes part in racing ect.

and surely at a time when the KC & Crufts are welcoming dogs from abroad its not to much to ask for it to catter for its home grown dogs.

Racers often struggle to enter shows as it classes with racing the same as many show people have said in the past to me they would like to try racing but it classes with showing?

Come on there must be a simple answer.

i'm going to write off to the KC & The Whippet Club and ask for confermation regarding elegibility to show in the race/LC class at next years Crufts,

But after reading Angelas post regarding her bitch? and that she qualified through having won a coursing stake (well done by the way Angela) I dont think they will differ from what Andrea has stated to be the rule on entry.

 

[Mark Roberts]

Your post re the qualification required to enter Racing/Coursing classes at Crufts would be the same as saying that I should just go to lots of shows (and these could be any kind of show) and it doesn't matter if I never get placed, the fact that I've gone a minimum number of times means that I am good enough to qualify to enter and show my dogs at Crufts.

nope but close enough LOL.

for normal classes at crufts I fully agree that a dog should have to get placed at a Ch show ect to qualify.

BUT as the racing & LC class is a novelty class (not my description of it but was posted earlyer) and that on top of Mr Meagers comments a few years back then it would be nice IMO to see more race bred dogs in this fun/novelty class, lets face it the show breds should in theory wipe the floor with us but at least dogs from all breeding that raced/lure coursed would be able to be represented.

 

[TC]

i'm going to write off to the KC & The Whippet Club and ask for confermation regarding elegibility to show in the race/LC class at next years Crufts, But after reading Angelas post regarding her bitch? and that she qualified through having won a coursing stake (well done by the way Angela) I dont think they will differ from what Andrea has stated to be the rule on entry.

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Ok, I wasn't going to say anything until I had a final answer, but I've already been in contact with them.

I spoke to a very nice gentleman this morning who at first was quite adamant that the only qualification required was to have won a race or coursing class with the relevant bodies etc, etc.

I explained that I was under the impression that this was the class definition, and 'normal' qualification was still required.

He said, "No, that's all it say about the class" to which I replied,

"On the same page there are class definitions for post grad for example, but we all know that we have to qualify according to the criteria laid out in the beginning of the schedule (as defined by Jo in her previos post)"

"On this same page, there is the class definition for Good Citizens, are you saying that they don't have to qualify in the normal way then, that you only have to be a "Good Citizen" to be able to complete in this class"

"Oh no, you have to qualify as well as being a Good Citizen"

So I asked him why the R/C class was different, and that I required a definitive answer as I was going to be posting his reply onto the web on an open forum. He then began to doubt himself, and has asked for time to clarify with a superior. He has since rung me and said that the person working alongside him thinks that you must qualify in the 'normal' way and then qualify by meeting the criteria of the class definition. He still wants more time to get a firm answer by someone senior.

So watch this space........

It is not my intention to cause slight on the KC, I am purely advising you that they are doing everything in their power to provide the accurate answer :thumbsup:

 

[TC]

Your post re the qualification required to enter Racing/Coursing classes at Crufts would be the same as saying that I should just go to lots of shows (and these could be any kind of show) and it doesn't matter if I never get placed, the fact that I've gone a minimum number of times means that I am good enough to qualify to enter and show my dogs at Crufts.

nope but close enough LOL.

for normal classes at crufts I fully agree that a dog should have to get placed at a Ch show ect to qualify.

BUT as the racing & LC class is a novelty class (not my description of it but was posted earlyer) and that on top of Mr Meagers comments a few years back then it would be nice IMO to see more race bred dogs in this fun/novelty class, lets face it the show breds should in theory wipe the floor with us but at least dogs from all breeding that raced/lure coursed would be able to be represented.

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Yes Mark, I hear where you're coming from re the 'novelty' factor (btw I hate that word, but can't think of a suitable other) BUT the winner of this class will enter the Challenge (as long as it is unbeaten i.e. if it also entered another class but was either unplaced or came third) so if it is good enough to play with the big boys to win Best of Breed as such, then it needs it's qualification to be the back up for it being there.

edited to say - BTW when I say "big boys as such" I mean those that have qualified through the normal Crufts qualification process :wacko:

 

[Strike Whippets]

You are right Tracy .......I did post earlier saying the qualifying of racing and lure coursing classes DOES have to be made harder other wise it does make a mockery of qualifying for these classes at Crufts ......... I can say that ALL of my adult Whippets are Crufts qualified including my show bred Joanna whos the slowest dog ever for the racing class, but i'd never dream of putting her in this class as her ability as a racer or lure courser was too poor IMO ........ even though she gives 100% .......but she would be more likely to get placed in these classes :blink: