British And American Whippets

[patsy]

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Hi Carol, welcome to K9 it is nice to have an American on the thread that has a lot of English bloodlines that you have combined with your American.

In answer to Juley I would say in depth we have better front fill than the American dogs. and better front assemblies.

 

[melanie]

has anyone got any pic's or drawings of good top lines and underlines please?

 

[TC]

Ooops, I've got behind :b So pleased to see this back up

Here's some of my heads (w00t)

Winx - Bitchy :b but a gorgeous lad none the less. He is totally racing bred.

Fatboy Jacob, lovely expression, but a tad big in my opinion.

Ruso - I love Ruso's head, and think he's just masculine enough, but I am sure other's may think otherwise.

Badge - although please excuse the scrapes over his eye, he'd had a run in with some brambles :wacko: I like his masculinity :*

Can't wait to see all these toplines :thumbsup:

TCx

 

[beaker]

i've not been in the breed all that long so don't know how valid my concerns are but i can't help but worry about over long flat backs being at an increased risk of injury, It probably stems from my upbringing around performance horses and working gundogs.

when trying to acheive maximum, effective forward propulsion, (e.g running, jumping) whilst trying to minimise injury/strain risk, a balance of strength between the back (topline) and the core supporting muscles (underline) is vitally important.

 

[UKUSA]

Hi
Another voice from "across the pond".  I've been following this topic with great interest as it has been fascinating.

Talking about heads in the USA vs England.  I think we are having some serious problems with heads here recently.  I am seeing more and more longer and what I call "snipy" muzzles.  Not necessarily with a lack of underjaw- just not enough fullness to the muzzle.  Of course a Whippet is in no way heavy headed, but I think we've carried it a bit too far.  And backskulls are suffering somewhat as well. It certainly is true that a Whippet is not a head breed, but judges are influenced by first impressions and if the head is not attractive some will look no further.  That lovely soft eye and endearing expression is surely a "hallmark" of the breed- no matter where in the world you live. A lovely head is a lovely head in England or the USA.

The big thing in the head department that is different is in eye color.  Most Americans dislike light eyes. ( and, sad to say, dilute colors).  I have a male that I imported from the UK several years ago.  He is a silver fawn and yes, he has the dreaded lighter eye color.  Strange thing though- when I use him carefully he has sired the most incredible pigment and VERY dark eyes.  He even accidentally bred a dilute bitch  who has a not so dark eye and the puppies all had quite dark eyes. Kind of proves that what you see isn't always what you get.

I keep trying to tell people that we have enough problems with structure and type without worrying ourselves silly with eye color. ( Not to mention health problems that are potentially lethal)  Most people won't hear it.

It is so great to hear the sharing of opinions that are going on in this forum. One of the most serious problems in the entire dog fancy today ( in my humble opinion anyway) is that so many people don't take the time to study and learn.  It's so much easier to just follow the fashion and breed to the top winning dog.  And, of course, get an entire litter of top show prospects that are sold to "new fanciers" who just continue to follow the leader. Since this is my  current " hot button" I won't expound on that theory- at least not in my first post to this forum. <grin>

Carol

www.geocites.com/windsong_whippets

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Carol, welcome, it is great to have another viewpoint from across the pond and as Patsy has said from someone who has combined both English and American blood. I agree a beautiful head is a beautiful head whatever the country. The eye difference is interesting considering that we all started from the same place as it were, Iknow what I think but why do you think that our standards differ in that department. And while we are on the head topic, both of our standards are very specific about ear shape. In this country very few people bait their Whippets so providing a dog with bad ears doesn't listen for the bunny in the ring you can get away with it but of course not so in America where baiting is very much part of showing. I have to admit that for me a correct ear set and placement sets a good head and eye off.

Nicky

 

[chelynnah]

That is a stunning head study of Kim Henrik, it is also a correct head.I think my Russell has a most lovely head but have not got a clue how to post a picture.

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I haven't finished reading the thread, but here is a beautiful headshot we took of Russell at the Houndshow in August. I do think he has a beautiful head.



Wendy

 

[patsy]

That is a stunning head study of Kim Henrik, it is also a correct head.I think my Russell has a most lovely head but have not got a clue how to post a picture.

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I haven't finished reading the thread, but here is a beautiful headshot we took of Russell at the Houndshow in August. I do think he has a beautiful head.

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Wendy

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Thank you so much Wendy for the head shot of Russell as most of you will know he has a English bred sire Ch/AustCh Pererone Solid Gold out of our lovely Ch.Sporting Fields Winged Dove.who is completely American bred. I am glad that we have Carol on the board as she did so much for me with Dolly, keeping me informed of her progress and was always so sure that she would win in England.

 

[maggie217]

That is a stunning head study of Kim Henrik, it is also a correct head.I think my Russell has a most lovely head but have not got a clue how to post a picture.

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I haven't finished reading the thread, but here is a beautiful headshot we took of Russell at the Houndshow in August. I do think he has a beautiful head.

View attachment 54587

Wendy

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[SIZE=14pt]I've just fallen in love[/SIZE]

Pauline

 

[wendigo]

I think that top lines vary in both English and American whippets, I think that the Americans put more emphasis in having a lovely S shaped underline. The top line and underline play a big part in making a very good one extra special.

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I don't know if Americans put more emphasis on the S-shaped underline - if so, it's something that we need to keep working on. One thing that stood out to me when Karen Lee judged the EAWC show and brought back pictures of all the dogs was how there wasn't a single dog that you could complain about chest fill/underline. They all had lovely deep chests that reached the elbow and a definite curve up to the waist. I think this is something a number of the American whippets have lost, and they appear somewhat tube-like. Whether its from lack of depth in the chest or lack of a nice tight tuck up the result is the same - you lose that lovely S- curve that the British dogs seem to have in spades.

-Wendy M.

 

[UKUSA]

Well to me Russells head is perfection, everything that I would want and from the angle that the photo has been taken at you can see his lovely under jaw. For me his head is an American head but Id be interested to hear what others think, American or English bearing in mind that Russell is by a pure English dog out of a pure American bitch.

Nicky

 

[UKUSA]

I think that top lines vary in both English and American whippets, I think that the Americans put more emphasis in having a lovely S shaped underline. The top line and underline play a big part in making a very good one extra special.

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I don't know if Americans put more emphasis on the S-shaped underline - if so, it's something that we need to keep working on. One thing that stood out to me when Karen Lee judged the EAWC show and brought back pictures of all the dogs was how there wasn't a single dog that you could complain about chest fill/underline. They all had lovely deep chests that reached the elbow and a definite curve up to the waist. I think this is something a number of the American whippets have lost, and they appear somewhat tube-like. Whether its from lack of depth in the chest or lack of a nice tight tuck up the result is the same - you lose that lovely S- curve that the British dogs seem to have in spades.

-Wendy M.

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Do you think the reason that some American dogs lack infill and depth of chest is because the front assemblies are straighter and appear to be set forward which would then unbalance the rest of the outline?

Nicky

 

[patsy]

As I said in a previous post in depth we in England do have the better front assemblies and fill, I don't think that some of the handling in America helps as they seem to pull the dogs more up onto their fronts also making the pasterns look very straight, but that said I have seen American whippets with outlines to die for. It is difficult to generalise in very big entries in both countries you get the good,bad and indifferent. The difficult thing to get is the elegance which we should never loose but still have some depth and substance, but again not to much, a good whippet should look like a thoroughbred not a carthorse

 

[fourpaws]

As I said in a previous post in depth we in England do have the better front assemblies and fill, I don't think that some of the handling in America helps as they seem to pull the dogs more up onto their fronts also making the pasterns look very straight, but that said I have seen American whippets with outlines to die for. It is difficult to generalise in very big entries  in both countries you get the good,bad and indifferent. The difficult thing to get is the elegance which we should never loose but still have some depth and substance, but again not to much, a good whippet should look like a thoroughbred not a carthorse

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Yes it is difficult to generalise there are good and bad fronts in both countries. I have an American bitch sat right next to me who has a good front. Linda Larson in USA is a breeder who has good fronts on her dogs and I am sure Karen could direct us to others.

 

[dragonfly]

As I said in a previous post in depth we in England do have the better front assemblies and fill, I don't think that some of the handling in America helps as they seem to pull the dogs more up onto their fronts also making the pasterns look very straight,

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That is very true Patsy, the way they are handled makes a massive difference when you look at them across the ring, but not when you have your hands on.

I know Karen has some pictures of her dogs in US and UK style stacks which illustrate the point perfectly.

I have seen some very good fronts in the States but like here they are not common.

Cathie

 

[windsongwhippets]

Hi

To reply to Nicky I'm afraid my answer isn't going to make alot of sense to some. I really do believe that the reason the USA standard was changed in regard to eye color was because someone on the standard committee insisted on it. I may get totally lambasted for saying these things but I believe it's the whole polital system here. We Americans have changed every breed we've imported from anywhere- horses and dogs being the mmost familiar to me- we have this insatiable desire to import something and then change it under the guise of "making it better" Years ago there were people who were almost violently opposed to the dilute colors and lighter eyes that usually accompanied those. There was even one article that I saw that stated that all dilute puppies should be bucketed. And the people who controlled the AWC way back when were very very opposed to a lighter eye. That's where it started and it hasn't changed much. It appears now that there isn't quite as much opposition among breeders or breeder judges, but don't forget that most of our judges do judge many breeds and are not familiar with the intracacies of most breeds they judge.

I agree with Patsy that the underlines and fronts in the UK are better than in the USA. We have our share of the lovely deep briskets and sweeping underlines, but not enough. And fronts !!!!!!!!!!!! Well..........the bane of every breeder in almost any breed! I see better shoulders in the UK dogs, but many still have the short upper arm that seems to plague the breed on both sides of the pond. I've talked to alot of people ( not all of them new either) that think if a dog has sufficient front fill and legs that turn neither in or out that's a good front. Alot of people don't understand a good front. And strangely the lack of sufficient length to the upper arm doesn't always affect motion. It should but it doesn't. Could be because we tend to fly around the ring with our dogs and the illusion is that they're moving so wonderfully when they're just going so darn fast you have a hard time actually seeing the motion. There's alot of moving from the elbow as well rather than engaging the shoulder. I think motion can be affected by a handler but movement cannot. Does that make any sense?

Back to listening.

Carol

 

[~JO~]

Well to me Russells head is perfection, everything that I would want and from the angle that the photo has been taken at you can see his lovely under jaw. For me his head is an American head but Id be interested to hear what others think, American or English bearing in mind that Russell is by a pure English dog out of a pure American bitch.Nicky

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I know we try to look beyond colour but in this instance I think his markings and pigmentation make his head appear more American, but if you imagine his head in fawn with dilute pigmentation it is very similar to some seem from English lines and perhaps is more 'english' that he looks at first appearance

 

[patsy]

You are right Carol about short upper arms, at the speed whippets are moved in the US it could to some extent be covered up more, if that makes sense, here the dogs are moved at a slower pace so when they move in profile it is easier to spot the ones with a long reach in front, they need a long upper to reach and move low over the ground. A short upper arm you usually get a short stride. The short upper arm is certainly a problem in the breed.

 

[UKUSA]

Thank-you Carol for answering so well I found myself nodding in agreement with much that you had to say. I know that when I lived in the U.S dilute was almost a dirty word and something you certainly did not want.

Interesting Jo but for me Russell has an American look about him but then he would! But of course we all see things differently Idon't think that it would matter what colour Russell was he would still have that look, its a look that I recognise as aside from my American family I see it in my own Clockwork Orange who again has American blood, I think that when you have had it or been around it its a look that you recognise making it different from the English look.

Nicky

 

[windsongwhippets]

Hi

Patsy, thanks for the kind words. Miss Naughty Dolly is a very special girl.

That head shot of Russell is just lovely !! The lovely soft expression that personifies the breed. He could win anywhere in the World in my opinion, the rest of him is as attractive as his head.

Carol

 

[playawhile]

That is a stunning head study of Kim Henrik, it is also a correct head.I think my Russell has a most lovely head but have not got a clue how to post a picture.

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I haven't finished reading the thread, but here is a beautiful headshot we took of Russell at the Houndshow in August. I do think he has a beautiful head.

View attachment 54587

Wendy

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Thank you so much Wendy for the head shot of Russell as most of you will know he has a English bred sire Ch/AustCh Pererone Solid Gold out of our lovely Ch.Sporting Fields Winged Dove.who is completely American bred. I am glad that we have Carol on the board as she did so much for me with Dolly, keeping me informed of her progress and was always so sure that she would win in England.

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Very nice head!!!

Henrik