British And American Whippets

[BeeJay]

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Going back to differences. I seem to remember hearing that in the US any health problems for example with offspring are recorded with the AKC? Is this true?

Please note I'm not wanting a discussion on health problems just trying to see if they do occur in the US are they dealt with differently.

 

[Juley]

OK, I would be interested to hear about the different types of dog shows you have in the USA. In the Uk, we have, Limited, either breed specific or all breeds, limited to members. Can't get CC or qualify for Crufts at these. Open, either breed specific or open to all breeds. All breed shows qualify if you get BIS, RBIS, BPIS. Premier All Breed Open shows, some BOB qualify for Crufts. Plus BIS, RBIS, BPIS. Championship shows, either breed specific or all breeds. Many have CC's on offer and these also have qualifying classes.

I'm sure to have missed something out or got something wrong. (w00t) . Please help me out here. This thread has been really interesting in the most part, lets get back to discussing the different ways we operate on each side of the water. :thumbsup:

 

[TC]

Interestingly enough I have recenly had a message through my website saying this....

Date: 1/3/2008, 9:31 pm, GMT

Name: Edited by TC

Email: Edited by TC

Number: 63

 

Wish I could join you guys at Crufts the shows in U.K. are so much more fun than the ham and egg affairs in the states.Actually dogs are much more complete across the pond.

Ummed and ahhed about posting it, but as he was obviously happy to publish it on the www I think it should be okay to put it here?

I thought it might be relevant to this thread and to see what others thought of his interpretation of showing in his country?

TCx

 

[zafonic]

Interesting - Have you ever known a castrated dog placed ? and although interesting your reply doesn't actually comment on my point re breeding

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No a castrated dog wouldn't be placed as a judge should also be taking into consideration the ability of the dog to be able to reproduce. i.e. would bitch make a good brood bitch or a dog make a good stud. This has nothing to do with its ability to work.

Showing is not all about working ability it also about been able to reproduce the quality and continue the line.

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My old dog was castrated 2 years ago for medical reasons. He had done reasonably well in the ring beforehand, and had sired several litters. I showed my boy 4 times after he was castrated, mainly because he loves showing and coming out with me. Admittedly, he was shown in Veteran at Breed Club open shows (I wouldn't have paid Championship Show entries for a castrated dog!). I was pleasantly surprised that he was placed on each occasion, and he was never placed last. Each of the 4 judges said to me that they had penalised him because of his lack of certain parts, but that his merits had still earned him a place.

Obviously a castrated dog is never going to do top winning - but I found those comments very interesting ...

The reason that particular dog doesn't come out now to get his sausage in Veteran is because the cancer has come back, and he's now a very lumpy-bumpy boy.

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Interestingly when Margaret Martin was judging a forign breed show she put up an older dog who had his useful bits removed because of cancer and he went on to be b.i.s. he was a top dog and stud dog before his operation but it still took some nerve (i could have said the other word but it might not be succh a good idea!! :b ) to do it. A true judge should be able to assess each dogs best points and as long as he has a genuine reason for castration and has left a litter on the ground what difference should it make? no doubt certain people will shoot me down but i dont see a problem. :x

 

[Cartman]

Cathie I am thinking of turning pro, handler I mean, why not book me, will get some little ballet shoes, don't do trainers.

"No trainers" (w00t) I have been known to show in a dinner jacket & trainers. :cheers:

Have been to some country shows & early in the morning at the Toy ring you see the fat ladies show in Ugg boots & tracky dacks.

 

[zafonic]

Getting back to the original question. Shallfleet had and still do breed the very best english lines with the best of american lines, very successfully and Rodger

 

[playawhile]

This discussion was from the beginning about American/UK whippets but I think there are whippets out there who are such good specimens that could do well in any part of the world no matter the standards just because they are whippet of high quality and of outstanding breed type. One such whippet that comes to mind is Ch Paris Panther who won in so many different countries including BIS at Skokloster both at the whippet club and Sighhound Club the same weekend. He did extremely well on the continent and I believe he could have done very well in the UK also, as he did some good winnings under British breeders down in France for instance.

Pat Miller lent Ch Play A While XXXX from me back in 1998 to Canada but some of her friends were sceptic, as Buddha was a brindle with just a bit of socks of white. A nearly solid brindle was said not being able of doing well in groups and so on but Buddha proved them wrong winning loads of groups and BIS. Patsy you were one of the first to judge Buddha and don’t you think she could have done well in UK have had the chance to be shown?? Buddha also did very well in the Nordic countries.

Another one of all American breeding was Ch Statuesque Extortion who was top whippet in Sweden, had a wonderful career in Australia and did win a reserve CC in the UK.

Henrik

 

[zafonic]

Getting back to the original question. Shallfleet had and still do breed the very best english lines with the best of american lines, very successfully and Rodger

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Sorry about that got caught off in my prime, Rodger and Patsy have used a number of American lines too. June Mins' Airscott Ruby Rascal also contains a large dose of american lines too. I can think of a number of other breeders botyh long gone and current who have made the lines work together. I feel that it is a bit much to make oneself a trendsetter when it has all been done before and with more than a modicum of success!! Using any lines that dont have a closeish tie can be a risky buisness the art is in getting it right not just breeding two dogs together and hoping for the best. :wacko: :wacko:

 

[Cartman]

and hoping for the best.

"Hoping for the best", that just about sums it up. You can put 40 years of breeding, showing & studying the standard & lines. Mate a dog to a bitch after applying all factors, & what can you do? "hope for the best".

 

[patsy]

This discussion was from the beginning about American/UK whippets but I think there are whippets out there who are such good specimens that could do well in any part of the world no matter the standards just because they are whippet of high quality and of outstanding breed type. One such whippet that comes to mind is Ch Paris Panther who won in so many different countries including BIS at Skokloster both at the whippet club and Sighhound Club the same weekend. He did extremely well on the continent and I believe he could have done very well in the UK also, as he did some good winnings under British breeders down in France for instance.
Pat Miller lent Ch Play A While XXXX from me back in 1998 to Canada but some of her friends were sceptic, as Buddha was a brindle with just a bit of socks of white. A nearly solid brindle was said not being able of doing well in groups and so on but Buddha proved them wrong winning loads of groups and BIS. Patsy you were one of the first to judge Buddha and don’t you think she could have done well in UK have had the chance to be shown?? Buddha also did very well in the Nordic countries.

Another one of all American breeding was Ch Statuesque Extortion who was top whippet in Sweden, had a wonderful career in Australia and did win a reserve CC in the UK.

Henrik

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Yes Henrik I remember Buddha well, and she would have been my second best bitch, but was not allowed to do it because of her age. Yes she could have easily held her title in the Uk. Paris panther was another dog I gave best of breed to at a sighthound show in Germany, he was a veteran at the time, but another who could have held his title in the Uk like his son Hubbstad International.

 

[masta]

As the topic is about US & UK Whippets I was having a snoop around the US sites and came across the long haired whippet association! With a breed standard (thus the link to this thread)Are they recognised by the American Kennel club?

If they are, are they shown?

Are they coming over to the UK?

More importantly is this really a pure breed recessive gene?? I don't understand colour genetics so I have no chance with long coats and short coats!

Or am I picking up on a web site that should only be read on April 1st (w00t)  

http://home.ica.net/~westwood/breedstandard.htm

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"Are they coming over to the UK?"

Weve already got them, they are called Lurchers :thumbsup:

 

[jinx and rubys mum]

As the topic is about US & UK Whippets I was having a snoop around the US sites and came across the long haired whippet association! With a breed standard (thus the link to this thread)Are they recognised by the American Kennel club?

If they are, are they shown?

Are they coming over to the UK?

More importantly is this really a pure breed recessive gene?? I don't understand colour genetics so I have no chance with long coats and short coats!

Or am I picking up on a web site that should only be read on April 1st (w00t)  

http://home.ica.net/~westwood/breedstandard.htm

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"Are they coming over to the UK?"

Weve already got them, they are called Lurchers :thumbsup:

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PMSL :- "

 

[seaspot_run]

OK, I would be interested to hear about the different types of dog shows you have in the USA.  In the Uk, we have,  Limited, either breed specific or all breeds, limited to members.  Can't get CC or qualify for Crufts at these. Open, either breed specific or open to all breeds.  All breed shows qualify if you get BIS, RBIS, BPIS.  Premier All Breed Open shows, some BOB qualify for Crufts. Plus BIS, RBIS, BPIS. Championship shows, either breed specific or all breeds. Many have CC's on offer and these also have qualifying classes.
I'm sure to have missed something out or got something wrong.  (w00t) .  Please help me out here.    This thread has been really interesting in the most part, lets get back to discussing the different ways we operate on each side of the water.  :thumbsup:

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We do not have as many kinds of shows as you do and certainly nothing equivalent to the Junior Warrant title.

The following is about the US, but it basically applies to Canada as well, so for Canada, where I say AKC, just insert CKC.

We have point shows, which are where the clubs putting them on have been recognized by the AKC after going through a process of demonstrating they have sufficient members in a specific geographical area with the support and the expertise to organize and run an event which is acceptable to AKC standards. A club has to show this by holding organized events over a couple of years with correct paperwork. Clubs are of three kinds--and I have been a member of all three kinds.

1) All-Breed Clubs--something along the lines of East Boondocks Dog Fanciers.

2) Group Clubs--Boondocks Area Hound Association

3) Specialty Clubs--Whippet Club of Greater Boondocks

All-Breed Clubs hold All-Breed shows, which usually include obedience as well on the day. In order to judge at an All-Breed point show, you have to be licensed by AKC or the official all-breed organization of your home country.

Group Clubs hold Group Shows, which are also judged by licensed judges, but they usually have separate events on the same day such as puppy and veteran sweepstakes (more about those later), which may be judged by aspiring judges who are not yet licensed.

Specialty Clubs may only hold shows for their breed. These are called Specialties. They are judged by licensed judges but almost always will include a puppy sweepstakes and perhaps a Veteran Sweepstakes, again, which will usually be judged by an experienced fancier who is not yet a licensed judge. That isn't ALWAYS true, as we very often have a licensed judge do our Veteran Sweepstakes at the National Specialty. But it is not necessary to be licensed to be a Sweepstakes judge--you have only to be in good standing with the American Kennel Club or your home country's main purebred dog governing body.

There are a lot of reasons people here who are still active in breeding and showing don't pursue their judging licenses and prefer to stick with doing sweepstakes and match shows. For example, you may not even so much as hold a dog at ringside which does not belong to you, or you did not breed, let alone handle that dog. So, for someone like me who enjoys helping out their friends, this makes being a judge less attractive.

Ok, so below the point shows which are the ones where championship points are awarded, we have sweepstakes. These competitions are for ribbons, prizes, and money. Money is awarded based on how you placed, as a percentage of the size of the class you placed in. The entry fees for the class are pooled, minus a small cut to help defray the cost of holding the sweepstakes, and then doled out on a percentage basis, so a dog who won 3rd in a very large class may very well end up with more money in their prize envelope than a dog who was 1st in a smaller one.

Puppy sweepstakes are common. Veteran sweepstakes are less common.

I'll break it here and start a new thread to talk about matches and the Futurity.....

:sweating:

 

[Avalonia]

[ Are they recognised by the American Kennel club?

If they are, are they shown?

Are they coming over to the UK?

More importantly is this really a pure breed recessive gene?? I don't understand colour genetics so I have no chance with long coats and short coats!

....

Weve already got them, they are called Lurchers :thumbsup:

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PMSL :- "

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Having grown up in a home with a mother who bred and showed Rough Collies and maternal and paternal grandparents who bred English and Irish Setters, I spent a goodly part of my childhood and youth grooming dogs. So my first decision about what type of dogs I would have as an adult was made for me because of my aversion to grooming. I knew it had to be a short-coated breed with minimal grooming requirements and the whippet fit that bill. So why anyone would want one of these cross-bred dogs with a coat that requires constant grooming positively escapes me!

A bit of information about the 'long-haired' whippet. NO, it does not have AKC, CKC, FCI or any other major kennel club recognition as a breed. This is not for wanting, as proponents and breeders of this dog fought long and hard on several occasions beginning in the 60s and right into the 1980s to have them classified separately and accepted by the AKC, but thanks to the good efforts of people such as Bo Bengston, Peggy Newcombe and Dr. Barbara Henderson and others acting in the interest of the American Whippet Club and the breed generally, these efforts were unsuccessful. I believe the group is now considering having them recognized as a separate 'breed' because this indeed is what they are.

The genesis of this dog goes back to a man by the name of Walter Wheeler, who owned and showed whippets in the 50s/60s. Mr. Wheeler initially did not reveal when he announced he had whelped long-haired whippets from what was obviously a mutated gene, that he also owned Shelties simultaneously with the whippets. This only became clear as he sought recognition of his 'long-haired whippets'. It was only when examination was made of his claims that these long haired dogs came from a mutated gene produced out of Hillgarth Shot Silk whom Peggy Newcombe purchased in England and exported to the USA, that people examining his claims put two and two together and got a Whippet/Sheltie mix.

Wheeler persisted in his claim that Shot Silk carried this gene which she passed on to her children, one of whom Wheeler owned, and out of this came the long-hair. He began concentrated on maximizing this coat by breeding with other dogs he 'identified' as also carrying this gene, and announced he had been able to 'retrieve' the long coat that came out of the distant background of the whippet.

Peggy Newcombe, of course, was quick to dismiss this, having purchased, owned and bred Shot Silk. She reported and confirmed none of the dogs she produced out of this bitch ever produced pups or grandchildren with anything other than the standard whippet coat. Wheeler thereafter revised his story to say other dogs were also carriers that he had assembled to produce his 'line' but after that the only people believing him were the early adopters of his designer breed.

It is now generally, perhaps grudgingly accepted, that there was indeed a Sheltie cross, either accidentally initially or deliberately, and probably deliberately thereafter, and this seems confirmed by the fact that the Long-Haired Whippet is included in the list of dogs in North America that are all genetically related that cannot be give certain types of medication for things such as protection against heartworm because of an acute sensitivity ot the medication, which can kill them.

In the latest issue of the Canadian Kennel Club's Dogs in Canada Dr. Jeff Grognet, a vet who writes a series of articles on medical issues related to dogs, noted the severe reaction to certain medications amongst dogs that included collies, shelties, several types of sheep dogs, and, surprise, surprise, the long-haired whippet.

I have seen these dogs in the US being exhibited at a 'rare breeds' show. They look like miniature borzois. They seem sweet and affectionate in nature, but you are right -- in the UK you can produce similar dogs and call them lurchers whereas here in Canada members of the Canadian Kennel Club cannot cross breeds and sell them as you are permitted to do. The penalty is severe -- loss of membership rights and privileges, which includes the right to register purebred dogs. So English lurcher type dogs are not found over here, though they are extremely common in England.

Lanny

 

[seaspot_run]

Continuing on with shows in the USA...

A unique event we have in Whippets (and I believe most other breeds have such a thing as well) is the annual Futurity. I believe this has been being held for about 20 years now. It is held by the American Whippet Club, our national club. At first, it was held at our largest and most centrally-located AWC Regional Specialty, but once we started having a National it was moved to become a part of the National and is our kick-off conformation event.

The Futurity process is a three-part process. First, you have to nominate your bitch when she is in whelp. You send in a form and a fee, stating who the parents are and when the litter is expected. For the last 15 years or so, you've also had to send in the current CERF number showing that the parents of the litter were checked for hereditary eye problems within the year before the date of the mating. Then, you nominate your litter before it is 12 weeks old. You send in another fee to do that, giving the actual date of birth of the litter and an official pedigree. Then, you pay an individual entry fee for whichever puppies from that litter you wish to exhibit in the Futurity. Obviously, this requires some advance planning.

All the fees from the bitch nominations, the litter nominations, and the individual entry fees are then pooled. Subtracting a bit for operating costs, this becomes the "pot". The age divisions go from 6 months to 18 months of age, a one year period, so that each litter born should have a Futurity for which it is eligible.

The "pot" is divided so that first through fourth in each age class gets the same prize money, with first usually getting around 80 dollars, in my experience, and then it goes down from there. The lion's share of the rest of it is awarded as a big check to the Best in Futurity winner.

The Futurity does not have to be judged by a licensed judge, but it is an elected honor. The people* who nominated bitches submit choices, the top four or five choices whose names were mentioned the most end up on the final ballot, and then the bitch nominators vote on that ballot to determine the judge and the alternate (in case something happens to the judge or they have an emergency and can't make it).

I judged the Futurity once, but I think I put up the wrong people so my voting bloc was sort of unhappy with me.... :- "

*actually, anyone can nominate a bitch, but you must be a member of AWC to actually vote on the judge.

Futurity wins and placements are considered very prestigious, even though no points attach to them. Also, people like winning a lot of money.

 

[patsy]

Continuing on with shows in the USA...
A unique event we have in Whippets (and I believe most other breeds have such a thing as well) is the annual Futurity. I believe this has been being held for about 20 years now.  It is held by the American Whippet Club, our national club.  At first, it was held at our largest and most centrally-located AWC Regional Specialty, but once we started having a National it was moved to become a part of the National and is our kick-off conformation event.

The Futurity process is a three-part process.  First, you have to nominate your bitch when she is in whelp.  You send in a form and a fee, stating who the parents are and when the litter is expected.  For the last 15 years or so, you've also had to send in the current CERF number showing that the parents of the litter were checked for hereditary eye problems within the year before the date of the mating.  Then, you nominate your litter before it is 12 weeks old. You send in another fee to do that, giving the actual date of birth of the litter and an official pedigree.  Then, you pay an individual entry fee for whichever puppies from that litter you wish to exhibit in the Futurity.  Obviously, this requires some advance planning.

All the fees from the bitch nominations, the litter nominations, and the individual entry fees are then pooled. Subtracting a bit for operating costs, this becomes the "pot".  The age divisions go from 6 months to 18 months of age, a one year period, so that each litter born should have a Futurity for which it is eligible.

The "pot" is divided so that first through fourth in each age class gets the same prize money, with first usually getting around 80 dollars, in my experience, and then it goes down from there.  The lion's share of the rest of it is awarded as a big check to the Best in Futurity winner. 

The Futurity does not have to be judged by a licensed judge, but it is an elected honor.  The people* who nominated bitches submit choices, the top four or five choices whose names were mentioned the most end up on the final ballot, and then the bitch nominators vote on that ballot to determine the judge and the alternate (in case something happens to the judge or they have an emergency and can't make it).

I judged the Futurity once, but I think I put up the wrong people so my voting bloc was sort of unhappy with me.... :- "

*actually, anyone can nominate a bitch, but you must be a member of AWC to actually vote on the judge. 

Futurity wins and placements are considered very prestigious, even though no points attach to them.  Also, people like winning a lot of money.

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All sounds a bit complecated to me Karen, but look forward to watching when Nicky and I come to Atlanta in 2009.

 

[seaspot_run]

Ok, there are a couple more types of competitions here.

Fun matches and sanctioned matches really aren't any different from the standpoint of the exhibitor, but they require a different degree of paperwork submitted or not submitted and this can be important if you are a club trying to gain AKC approval to hold point shows.

A lot of clubs which are approved hold matches anyway because they are good venues for public education (which clubs are required to do a bit of), and because they are easy money to fill club coffers. Match shows can be judged by anyone. They do not allow champions and usually, they exclude any dog who has won a major. Professional handlers may not show at most matches unless they are showing their own dog. Depending on entry, a match win can be impressive or it may be nothing much more than winning "best pet". They are for novices exhibitors to practice their ringcraft, or for puppies and green dogs to get some ring experience for a cheaper entry fee before entering point shows which are very expensive. Fun Matches are meant to be "Fun", and all you get usually is a ribbon and maybe a cheap prize, but the casual atmosphere makes it a good place to get ring experience.

Once a judge is licensed for a breed or breeds, they may no longer accept match show assignments for those breeds, but they may judge breeds at matches for which they are not yet licensed. So, matches are used to get new judges experience, also.

We have something here called a Supported Entry, which in Canada is called a "Booster". This is where the local or national specialty club "supports" the entry of their breed at an all-breed point show by offering a much larger prize list, and usually a puppy sweepstakes. Often, the judge will be a breeder/judge or someone more attractive to travel long distances to show under than the usual all-arounder judges would be.

Specialty shows can be held apart from an all-breed show, or they can be part of a regular all-breed show. The Eastern Whippet Specialty is one of the regionals sponsored by the American Whippet Club, and it is part of the Huntingdon Valley Kennel Club's All-breed show. They give us our own little area.

At a stand-alone specialty, Best of Breed is the highest you can go. At a specialty which is part of an all-breed show, the Best of Breed winner continues on to compete in the Hound Group.

At stand-alone specialties, altered Veterans may be shown, but if there is any competition past Best of Breed, then altered Veterans are excluded.

Canada has separate altered competitions at a lot of its shows and you can actually finish your dog in Canada, spay or neuter him, and then take it out again and put an Altered Championship on it.

Canada is lot more forward-thinking on this subject, IMO, than the US has been.

We do not have anything here which is equivalent to that big EAWC Open Show I judged last year. The closest thing to it are the big match shows that are held by some of the racing organizations. The Continental Whippet Alliance Annual Match usually draws around 60+ entries and has classes for champions, altered, and Veterans, as well as puppies down to 3 months of age, and that's the closest thing to it, but it's much less formal and the judge is not put on the clock.

So, there you have it.

Karen Lee

 

[starswift]

My judging stopped when when a very attractive young ladies dress split right down the back revealing all she had got, the judging in the Labrador ring next door also stopped. The girl took it all in good part. Now what do you all think, Karen can fill in a lot more than me.

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lol just aswell it was you patsy and not one of our elderly judges :b they would have needed to be stretchered off (w00t)

 

[moonlake]

lanny wrote (edited)

"It is now generally, perhaps grudgingly accepted, that there was indeed a Sheltie cross, either accidentally initially or deliberately, and probably deliberately thereafter,"

I have followed this saga on American lists and sites for some years and it was dna testing that finally and irrevocably proved the "herding" inheritance. Since then, I have had some interesting correspondence from one of the founders/supporters of the Silken Windhounds who was the only person to respond to my plea for information on polydactylys (extra toes) in whippets or sighthounds. She told me that they were common in their early crosses and that breeders had supposed it had come from the whippet component of the breed but it was one of the traits they quoted as being evidence of a new breed. I responded rather crisply that on the contrary, it would have come from the shelties since it is known in herding breeds but so far, I have been unable to find anyone in whippets who has even seen it, let alone bred it and our correspondence ended there. The breed is recognised in Eastern Europe so I don't suppose it will be long before it finds its way here.

Gay

 

[starswift]

now back to the standards i know im a nobody but the most recent us ch import sportingfield winged love at dumbriton sums up the uk standard better than a lot of uk bred dogs, she is one of the best examples of the breed in recent years thats why i have her grandkids but that is only my opinion but she gained her title mainly from judges who usually go for a more old fashioned type so this also speaks volumes